posted December 27, 2003 10:30 AM
My first 1270 kit... (Eric AKA-ZX9R)
I built it about 2-years ago...all new bottom end bearings included...It came to the shop for a tire and some other work...
I just got done Custom Mapping and...WOWza!!!
It's got 195+HP and 107Lb...
NOT that cold in the Dyno Room right now either...WISH I would have run it last night or EARLY this morning but I wanted it to be close to actual ridding conditions when I mapped it
Don't know how much of it is the Dymag wheels but...WHOOOHOOOooo...Made my day...
Oh Ya...It's mapped rich at 100% throttle for real world (ram-air) also...It would make 2-4 more HP if I mapped it for "Max Dyno HP"
Hate working today but...at least I'm having FUN!!!
posted December 27, 2003 11:42 AM
Paid for doing what you would do for free!!! Does it get any better? I wish I had a dyno with a sniffer in my garage!!
quote:"Real World" Ram Air is Compensated for by the MANY sensors in your FI system.
Tune for Max HP on the dyno.......The ECU will do the rest!
Dont quite think thats accurate. The "Real World" A/F ratio and the dyno room A/F ratio werent even close at speeds over 100mph.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted December 29, 2003 06:03 AM
Yep, I agree, I have picked up almost a .10th in the 1/4, by adjusting my map from best HP on the dyno...
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
posted December 29, 2003 08:51 PM
Hmmmm....You should not have high speed lean out no matter what your base map starts at.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted December 29, 2003 09:29 PM
heh....what "should" happen and what does happen are often two very different things when it comes to high performance vehicles.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted December 30, 2003 07:21 AM
This is a FACT. Kawasaki enginers did not program the ECU to "LEAN OUT" the 12 when running at high speed w/ a "Ram Effect".
With a Stock Intake and all sensors working properly.
Either something in your system has changed or you still have leaks in your system...(the frame has leaks eveywhere!).
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted December 30, 2003 07:29 AM
Well...I find that hard to believe because that would in effect make the bike a closed loop system....but the bike has no way to adjust for a lean condition because there is no 02 sensor. It just has to guess based on other input.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted December 31, 2003 07:09 AM
What I am saying is.......The 12 utilizes many sensors to determine how much extra fuel to to give the engine under "Ram-Effect". The main two are the Intake Air Pressure Sensor and the Baromertic Pressure Sensor.
The Faster you go.....(you create your own "Atmosphere" in the tail section of the bike).....the more you create a low pressure zone. The ECU see's this and in conjunction w/ the Intake sensor determines how much extra fuel to add to your base map, not to forget that many other sensors contribute info to the ECU.
If you run a Hans Snorkel the opposite will happen! The Hans will cause a pressure DROP in the Airbox/Frame and the ECU leans out accordingly.
Due to all this the 12 effectively does not "Need" a closed loop to provide the correct amout of extra fuel on "Ram".
Most 12's have been tuned on DJ250's and have a tendancy to be on the lean side to begin with. So the people out there that have added fuel to there map "to compensate for Ram-Air" have effectively gotten closer to an appropriate A/F ratio on thier base maps. 12's like gas, especially on RAM.
YCIS...If you are experiencing a "LEAN" condition at speed, something is not correct in your system.....The ECU's program will not do this.....12's would start burning pistons at high speed all over the place!
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted December 31, 2003 12:30 PM
Edited By: your car is slow on 31 Dec 2003 12:31
quote:What I am saying is.......The 12 utilizes many sensors to determine how much extra fuel to to give the engine under "Ram-Effect". The main two are the Intake Air Pressure Sensor and the Baromertic Pressure Sensor.
The Faster you go.....(you create your own "Atmosphere" in the tail section of the bike).....the more you create a low pressure zone. The ECU see's this and in conjunction w/ the Intake sensor determines how much extra fuel to add to your base map, not to forget that many other sensors contribute info to the ECU.
If you run a Hans Snorkel the opposite will happen! The Hans will cause a pressure DROP in the Airbox/Frame and the ECU leans out accordingly.
Due to all this the 12 effectively does not "Need" a closed loop to provide the correct amout of extra fuel on "Ram".
Most 12's have been tuned on DJ250's and have a tendancy to be on the lean side to begin with. So the people out there that have added fuel to there map "to compensate for Ram-Air" have effectively gotten closer to an appropriate A/F ratio on thier base maps. 12's like gas, especially on RAM.
YCIS...If you are experiencing a "LEAN" condition at speed, something is not correct in your system.....The ECU's program will not do this.....12's would start burning pistons at high speed all over the place!
A drop in atmospheric pressure is not enough to compensate for all conditions that would change the A/F ratio of the bike. The 12R is in effect a speed density system (similar to those on a early 90s gm cars (fbody etc). and there is a reason they switched to MAF sensors to monitor flow and intake of air as well as the manifold pressure and ambient pressure. (along with 02 sensors)
Humidity, temperature, altitude, air quality, along with about a bazillion other factors can cause a lean condition. None of which can be measured by the ECU...and it has no 02 sensor to go by.
Think about it...why would any bike ever have an inaccurate A/F ratio from the factory if what you say is correct. Mine looked like a damn SIN wave when I had it dynoed stock..along with nearly every other 12R stock dyno sheet ive seen with A/F printed. ____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted December 31, 2003 04:03 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 31 Dec 2003 16:04
You are talking about the base map installed at the factory to meet emission standards. The 12's come terribly lean down low at part throttle positions and are plenty rich up top at wide open throttle.
Your counter explenation of the 12's system clearly shows you do not understand how the ECU conducts itself under "Ram" conditions. Reread what I explained. The two pressure sensors help the ECU "see" the differences as speed increases.
As to the "Actual a/f's you have seen on dyno's......was the "Clean-Air" system disconnected!?? If not...the it will "appear" terribly lean.
Also, most dyno run graphs are done at wide open trottle and in 4th gear. As a result, the sniffer does not have enough "TIME" to gather accurate info. I do bet that the graphs you have seen on stock 12's are towards the rich side at 8000 rpm on up. Kawasaki would ensure this to keep combustion chamber volitility as low as possible.
Finaly....you can not compare early 90's GM FI systems to the 12, especialy because of the "Ram Air" system.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
quote:You are talking about the base map installed at the factory to meet emission standards. The 12's come terribly lean down low at part throttle positions and are plenty rich up top at wide open throttle.
Im not talking about any map period...you brought up the ECUs ability to compensate fuel to prevent a lean condition. I merely pointed out it doesnt have the capapbility to compensate for all factors that could cause a lean condition (or a rich one for that matter).
quote:Your counter explenation of the 12's system clearly shows you do not understand how the ECU conducts itself under "Ram" conditions. Reread what I explained. The two pressure sensors help the ECU "see" the differences as speed increases.
Again...ram air being one of a significant number of items impacting the A/F ratio of the bike...but certainly not the only one.
quote:As to the "Actual a/f's you have seen on dyno's......was the "Clean-Air" system disconnected!?? If not...the it will "appear" terribly lean.
Lean in places..rich in others...are you not clear on what a SIN wave looks like? (its the up down up down looking dillyo)
quote:Also, most dyno run graphs are done at wide open trottle and in 4th gear. As a result, the sniffer does not have enough "TIME" to gather accurate info.
Do what? The concept of an 02 sensor is an electrical signal produced by the chemical reaction of gasoline and the rare earth metals inside the 02 sensor itself. Its accuracy is the whole reason you USE a wideband. Are you saying the ECU is more accurate than a wideband? Thats ridiculous. Not to mention...what is the 'threshold" of time that has to be given for an accurate reading...I kept the bike at a constant speed and RPM in 5th gear and noticed minimal changes in A/F ratio. With that past comment are you saying that any tuning done on a Dyno using a wideband sniffer is innaccurate because it doesnt have time to get an accurate reading? I think thats silly.
quote: I do bet that the graphs you have seen on stock 12's are towards the rich side at 8000 rpm on up. Kawasaki would ensure this to keep combustion chamber volitility as low as possible.
Back to that sin wave comment.
quote:Finaly....you can not compare early 90's GM FI systems to the 12, especialy because of the "Ram Air" system.
Speed density is Speed density...I was not comparing the ECU to GMs FI system....I was comparing the logic you were giving on how it adjusted fuel delivery.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted January 02, 2004 10:47 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 4 Jan 2004 15:00
Come on BA....There is nothing here "Defensive" Just good info, Please read on and I will further explian the 4th gear issue.
quote:
Im not talking about any map period...you brought up the ECUs ability to compensate fuel to prevent a lean condition. I merely pointed out it doesnt have the capapbility to compensate for all factors that could cause a lean condition (or a rich one for that matter).
I did not claim anywhere here that the ECU "compensates" for a lean condition. It ADDS/SUBTRACTS from the BASE map. If your base map (PC) is too lean anywhere, DEPENDING ON CONDITIONS seen by the sensors in the system, It will add or take away fuel. That's what it is programed to do.
The only factors that could cause a "Lean Condition", is a Base map that is too lean to start with (like on a stock 12 at low rpm's and part throttle)or a sensor that is not working properly / improperly located.
quote:
Again...ram air being one of a significant number of items impacting the A/F ratio of the bike...but certainly not the only one.
This response is indicating nothing new to the topic.
quote:As to the "Actual a/f's you have seen on dyno's......was the "Clean-Air" system disconnected!?? If not...the it will "appear" terribly lean.
quote:
Lean in places..rich in others...are you not clear on what a SIN wave looks like? (its the up down up down looking dillyo)
Of course YCIS....The typical a/f graph at the bottom of a DJ250 Dyno sheet, You did not answer my question re; the "Clean-Air" system being disconnected. This is a crittical factor when determining proper a/f.
quote:
Do what? The concept of an 02 sensor is an electrical signal produced by the chemical reaction of gasoline and the rare earth metals inside the 02 sensor itself. Its accuracy is the whole reason you USE a wideband. Are you saying the ECU is more accurate than a wideband? Thats ridiculous. Not to mention...what is the 'threshold" of time that has to be given for an accurate reading...I kept the bike at a constant speed and RPM in 5th gear and noticed minimal changes in A/F ratio. With that past comment are you saying that any tuning done on a Dyno using a wideband sniffer is innaccurate because it doesnt have time to get an accurate reading? I think thats silly.
My point is....Notice how FAST a 12 will do a pull on the dyno in 4th gear. In the real world, it would be like doing a 4th gear roll on on the moon! You missed a few things here....The time your "Wideband" has on the road to sniff in 5th gear is ALOT longer than 4th gear in a dyno room. My tuner will put the bike in the highest gear possible (dependind on the limiter) to allow the sniffer the maximum amount of time to get an accurate sample. This makes a big difference when making a map that works in the real world.
You also indicated that you held the bike at a "Constant Speed in 5th gear"...you can't compare that to an a/f graph on a dj250 dyno chart, it is a wide open throttle in 4th gear graph.
Now, we don't need a lesson on how a wideband works...It's a mute point...the 12r goes about things in a different way and does not need one.
quote: I do bet that the graphs you have seen on stock 12's are towards the rich side at 8000 rpm on up. Kawasaki would ensure this to keep combustion chamber volitility as low as possible.
quote:
Back to that sin wave comment.
Once again....You did not address my point re; how a stock graph is lean in spots down low and towards the rich side up high...Pending that the "Clean-Air" was dissconnected.
quote:Finaly....you can not compare early 90's GM FI systems to the 12, especialy because of the "Ram Air" system.
quote:
Speed density is Speed density...I was not comparing the ECU to GMs FI system....I was comparing the logic you were giving on how it adjusted fuel delivery.
The Logic is Simple.....I explained it clearly above.
Now please understand me YCIS...I am doing my best to provide accurate info that I have assembled over the last few years of testing. Others have observed the same results as I have.
If you feel you are expeiencing a "LEAN CONDITION" at high speed....It can be only three things....BASE map too lean, bad/improperly located sensor or modified snorkel that does not follow the "Rules" of the "Helmholtz" formula.
I hope this helps...
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
quote:I did not claim anywhere here that the ECU "compensates" for a lean condition. It ADDS/SUBTRACTS from the BASE map. If your base map is too lean anywhere, DEPENDING ON CONDITIONS seen by the sensors in the system, It will add or take away fuel. That's what it is programed to do.
perhaps I should define the word "compensate". Are you saying that the ECUs "adding/subtracting fuel" is not compensating? I mean..you seriously are on a semantic crusade here :/
quote:The only factors that could cause a "Lean Condition", is a Base map that is too lean to start with (like on a stock 12 at low rpm's and part throttle)or a sensor that is not working properly / improperly located.
Thats ridiculous. What about humidity..altitude..air temperature..air filter modification (or removal), air quality, fuel quality and octane, misfires, fouled plugs, etc etc.
quote:Of course YCIS....The typical a/f graph at the bottom of a DJ250 Dyno sheet, You did not answer my question re; the "Clean-Air" system being disconnected. This is a crittical factor when determining proper a/f.
I already told you the bike(s) were stock..had the kleen air been disconnected..that wouldnt be stock anymore.
quote:My point is....Notice how FAST a 12 will do a pull on the dyno in 4th gear. In the real world, it would be like doing a 4th gear roll on on the moon! You missed a few things here....The time your "Wideband" has on the road to sniff in 5th gear is ALOT longer than 4th gear in a dyno room.
Then why were the graphs nearly identical...just off by a the same ratio?
Meaning...the 4th gear pull showed an af range of 10 - 11...and on the road in 5th..it showed 11 - 12 (and on spray...11.5 - 13)
quote: My tuner will put the bike in the highest gear possible (dependind on the limiter)
it should be run in the closest 1:1 gear..running in 6th is somewhat silly.
quote: to allow the sniffer the maximum amount of time to get an accurate sample. This makes a big difference when making a map that works in the real world.
Id bet you that if you take any of your bikes..and tune them however you like..that at 5th gear at 150mph (or whatever high speed mph you choose) the A/F ratio is going to be HIGHER than what it showed at the same gear and mph on the dyno by a half up to a full point.
quote:You also indicated that you held the bike at a "Constant Speed in 5th gear"...you can't compare that to an a/f graph on a dj250 dyno chart, it is a wide open throttle in 4th gear graph.
Never said I did....I compared the 5th gear (held) to my 5th gear (wfo run) to see if the "held" A/F ratio would be any different...it wasnt.
quote:Once again....You did not address my point re; how a stock graph is lean in spots down low and towards the rich side up high...Pending that the "Clean-Air" was dissconnected.
Yes I did..you didnt read it.
quote:Now please understand me YCIS...I am doing my best to provide accurate info that I have assembled over the last few years of testing. Others have observed the same results as I have.
Im not saying you arent giving your OPINION...but like all opinions...they vary. It cant be a fact or law if someone can prove it "doesnt always happen that way". I dont believe the ECU can compensate enough for high MPH Ram Air..and I used the wideband to prove it(and to tune for nitrous). I can put it on again for more proof if you desire. Would you like me to use multiple bikes this time? What exactly would it take? Its just simply not possible to recreate a real world environment in a dyno room and assume that all other external factors will be "taken care of by the ECU".
quote:If you feel you are expeiencing a "LEAN CONDITION" at high speed....It can be only three things....BASE map too lean, bad/improperly located sensor or modified snorkel that does not follow the "Rules" of the "Helmholtz" formula.
Again...I feel this is a false statement...I know for a FACT my base map isnt lean in the least..in fact its adding between 20 and 45% more fuel above 7000rpm....the sensors are stock and have never been modified or toyed with...and the snorkel is stock with no modifications. I really think you are being very narrowsighted by claiming those are the only 3 things that can cause a lean condition...the ECU aint that good
I hope this helps...
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
All times are America/Va [ This thread is 3 pages long: 123Next» ]
HOME
NEW TOPIC
posted December 27, 2003 10:30 AM
posted December 27, 2003 10:40 AM
Edited By: 
