Blade
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted December 06, 2003 09:46 AM
I am new here and need you help please!
Hey All,
I own a 02 ZX12R which has sucked sand through the filters down through the engine. Well I did some upgrades to her at the time I found this.
Well I took it to the dealer and had it checked out to make sure there was not a problem and to document it. Well they told me that if I did not put it back to stock then could void the warranty, so I did after about 800 miles.
Well with the K&N filters no sand got in, but after I went back to OEM filters it again sucked sand. So I demanded a wole new top end and this was denied.
Now I am going after the manufacture to buy the bike back. What I would like if you will do this please, is send me an email with your name and a way to contact you if you have had this same problem. Also if you know any one who is not a member of this board and owns a ZX12R, who has had this problem email me that would be great. Maybe together we can get Kawasaki to fix this problem.
Send the email to blade@dc.rr.com and put only the words "air box" in the subject line.
Thanks for you help.
Bill
  
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 06, 2003 01:12 PM
Bill, the #1 thing here is that you have complained about the Sand in the Air Box and are on record about it. Of course they are not going to replace something that is working and you cannot prove is damaged. There is a way to see if it is damaged, Find a place that has a scopethat they can put down in your spark Plug hole and look around the cylinders and take a few Pictures or certify their findings. They and you most likely will see a few scratches that all cylinders have and again nothing will be done. You have not stated how many miles are on the bike before you saw the sand? Then figure that the sand was not there the entire time either so about 1/2 the miles had dirt in the air.
Last, in the Old days, cars and bikes ran around without air cleaners to sound cool and to gain a little performance! ABout 99% of the people on this board have all seen the same thing. SO do the following! Either put the K&N Filters back in or put some white lithium grease on the sides of your stock filters or get some BMC Street Filters and no more sand!
SOme of us have even raced out bikes without filters and the bikes survived (Better and more than you think)
Last, is your bike does suffer from a lack of compression later and you have a performance loss, you can "Then" Bring this up and they will not have much of a leg to stanbd on!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted December 06, 2003 02:35 PM
What upgrades did you do. They will have to prove specifically that the upgrades you did caused the damage.
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Blade
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted December 06, 2003 07:30 PM
 Edited By: Blade on 6 Dec 2003 19:32
Hey VincentHill
Thanks for your reply and I to build bikes and have built cars. But never will I run one with out an air filter, especially since I live in the desert of So. CA.
As to your questions, my bike only has 5400 miles on it and has sucked sand through it for 4600 of that. No bike or car I have ever owned has ever done that from the factory, until this Ninja. I know that a lot of people will take the air cleaners out to gain a few more ponies, but you do that around here were I live and you will not only gain a few ponies, you will be doing a lot of rebuilds.
The bike does run good, but sand going through and engine for 4600 miles of the 5400 it has, is bound to do damage. I am just looking for people who will be willing to confirm that their ZX12R's have had the same problem and I will see what I can do. I had a dirt bike lock up on me once while I was going about 85 MPH full out, because of sand getting into the engine, I don't want to have to ride a 540lb bike out if by chance it to decides to lock up because of sand going through it.
If you would like to see my other bike, here is my website: http://www.ironcreek.net/~bill
Hey zxlnt,
I did a full Muzzy SS header system, K&N air filters, PC IIIr and aluminum cooling fans. I also added a LP Intergrater in to the tail light to eliminate the rear turn signals and added smaller turn signals to the front. There is a picuter of it on my website.
Take care and ride safe.
Bill
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted December 06, 2003 08:30 PM
Posted Aug. 21, 2002 by TedG
Took some time today to get things done had to run the valves, change the oil, replace the chain, install new tires, new brake pads, etc. If anyone remembers I and others had dirt in the airbox...
Here is where you can find the post that was quoted from.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=4142
I couldn't find the TedG's original post, but I think there were pictures and several others reported similar problems with both OEM and K&N filters. Here are a couple more threads that mention dirt or sand in getting into the airbox.
I hope this helps.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=4299
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=7702
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=7941
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted December 06, 2003 09:14 PM
I've had 1st hand experience with EXTREMELY fine sand in the airbox with stock filters. When you live on a pile of sand you may expect that more than a place with real dirt. It scared me too when I saw it.
K&N's stoped it from happening to me.
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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Blade
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted December 06, 2003 11:23 PM
Hey redelk,
Thank you very much for your help and the links.
Hey Dave,
I know what you mean. I stopped mine to with K&N, but since they were hassling me about them I went back to stock and it started all over again. So sinec I did what they wanted, now they can do what I want.
Thanks again all.
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CanadaMaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted December 07, 2003 03:56 PM
Edited By: redelk on 7 Dec 2003 17:24
I am also a member of that exclusive "dirt in the air box" club. I think owning a ZX 12 with OEM filters means dirt will be sitting on the air box floor. I almost shit...and then I read about the large number of guys who are dealing with the same thing. Check out the links below:
http://www.zx-12r.org/Motorcycle_info/Information%20Pages/Dirt!!!!%20-%20L_A_%20Busa's.htm
http://www.zx-12r.org/Motorcycle_info/Information%20Pages/Dirt%20in%20airbox%20-%20L_A_%20Busa's.htm
http://www.zx-12r.org/Motorcycle_info/Information%20Pages/OE%20filters%20no%20good!%20-%20L_A_%20Busa's.htm
http://www.zx-12r.org/Motorcycle_info/Information%20Pages/dirty%20air%20box%20-%20L_A_%20Busa's.htm
I will be getting some BMC filters before springtime.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted December 07, 2003 05:27 PM
CM, I don't know why your links are not working. Your URL tags are correct and if I paste the text between the tags into my address bar, they work fine. I tried to repaste your first link (thus you post shows it was edited by me) and it made no difference. Beats the hell out of me.
Anyway, I though I might have needed to explain why your post shows that I have edited it. I did not remove or alter anything you had originally posted.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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CanadaMaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted December 07, 2003 06:02 PM
Yeah, what the hell is going on??? I thought I typed those links in correctly.
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted December 07, 2003 07:58 PM
Testing
http://www.zx-12r.org/Motorcycle_info/Information%20Pages/Dirt!!!!%20-%20L_A_%20Busa's.htm
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted December 07, 2003 07:59 PM
Edited By: DaveInDaytona on 7 Dec 2003 20:03
Testing again
http://www.zx-12r.org/Motorcycle_info/Information%20Pages/Dirt!!!!%20-%20L_A_%20Busas.htm
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted December 07, 2003 08:02 PM
FYI - That link that looks like it works really doesn't there is a bug in the code for this board and it doesn't like the ' after the word busas. This is causing the tags to fail.
I tested it and I can use that link ok with the ' in there on the phpBB board I have. There's probably a workaround, but I'm not bored enough at the moment to find it.
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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blade
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted December 07, 2003 10:39 PM
Well I just filed a complaint with the Department of Transportation, explaining the situation. Here is there website: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/hotline/
If you live in the USA and have this problem, wheather or not you have them fix your bike, you can file a complaint here. If they get enough, they will investagate it.
Thanks, take care and ride safe.
Bill
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted December 08, 2003 05:23 AM
I would tell the dealer to stick it. Try doing a search on Magnuson Moss warranty act. Print it out and highlight the portions about warranty coverage denial. Once youre done explaining the terms of the act... stuff it down their throat. 
____________
Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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blade
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted December 08, 2003 01:40 PM
Hey TurboBlew,
Thanks, I will look for it.
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sneakyp
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted December 08, 2003 02:57 PM
Did the dealer even try a leakdown test to see if you are losing cylinder psi.
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted December 08, 2003 03:23 PM
quote:
I would tell the dealer to stick it. Try doing a search on Magnuson Moss warranty act. Print it out and highlight the portions about warranty coverage denial. Once youre done explaining the terms of the act... stuff it down their throat.
Thanks for the Magnuson Moss stuff. Man, that's a bunch of good reading when you do a google search for it.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted December 08, 2003 06:53 PM
Edited By: redelk on 8 Dec 2003 18:57
sneakyp is right. You really need to do a leak down test.
First do a compression check to see if there's any variation between the cylinders. I believe specs say that it should be less then 2% between the readings of all four. Let's say your #1 reads 180 psi and your #2 reads 178. That should not cause too much concern. Now if your #3 read 170 psi, we might have a problem. That would be a difference of about 6%.
Still, doing a compression check by itself doesn't tell the whole story. Different gauges give different readings and there are so many other variables, that's why the spec'ed acceptable range is so wide. A leak down test will more accurately tell you the condition of your rings and how well the valves are seating. Everything short of a hand built race engine will usually have some degree of leakage. It's how much of a percentage that's leaking that matters. A race engine could have as much a 5% and still be considered acceptable. Anything above 8% would be questionable.
Ah, but Rob Muzzy or Steve Rice did not build our engines. The were assembled at the factory, thus a slightly higher leak % is still more than acceptable. On the average, a "stock" engine, after being properly broken in, could have a leak down rate of 5% to 10%. After a several thousand miles, it could be even higher. Once you start getting above 16%, then it starts to get questionable. Many car manufacturers will even accept a rate closer to 25% (which is obscene). Like compression testing, the consistency between the cylinders is very important. All cylinders should be very close to each other. Preferably, less than 1% deviation. If you have a deviation that is greater than 1% or at a rate above about 10 to 12% (considering the low mileage, it should be even less), you've likely got a serious problem.
These testers range from about $200 (Motion Pro for 4 stroke engines) to $100 (Longacre Racing http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/long29.htm) to even as cheap as $60 (Tool Warehouse http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/STR-CLT2PB.html). For some of these, you might need an 10 mm adapter to fit your bike. There's even a way you can build your own. I found this site that gave pretty good instructions on how - http://www.xs11.com/tips/misc/misc3.shtml
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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blade
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted December 08, 2003 08:26 PM
Hey sneakyp and redelk,
Yes the dealer did both, but when you are talking about sand through and engine it really does not mean a lot. Although you might still have good or descent compression and the leak down was with in spec, there is still damage from the sand that went through. The only true way to find out how much is to tear the engine down. It does not take but a small amount of sand to do damage to and engine. Here are the parts sand going through the throttle bodies will most affect:
Valves
Valve Guides
Valve Seats
Pistons
Rings
Cylinders
Now let say sand gets between the ring and cylinder wall just as that cylinder fires. That ring will be excerting a lot of pressure against that cylinder wall, because it uses the high pressure of the burning fuel to put pressure against the cylinder wall for a tighter seal.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted December 08, 2003 09:31 PM
Edited By: redelk on 8 Dec 2003 21:34
I think you should not trust what your dealer said about the results of the leak down test. Did he give the actual numbers of either test? Like I said earlier, the leak down test is specifically for testing the leakage around the rings and valves and their seats. The same concerns you have listed above. If there is any damage to those components, a leak down test will tell you.
If you faith in your dealer is already shaken, there is no reason to accept him saying that the compression and leak down tests indicated that no problem exist. If you do the tests on your own and come up with similar results, than it is likely true that no damage has occured and you were lucky. On the other hand, if your testing comes up with different numbers (especially the leak down test), you got a dealer thats yanking your chain big time.
If your what you said in last statement did occur, the leak down numbers would not be consistant between all the cylinders. Those grains of sand would not remain in the same location between the rings and the cylinders for very long. If they started to put grooves in the cylinder walls, they would eventually break free.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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