posted October 17, 2003 02:49 PM
Excellent! this is REALLY helpful thanks again guys... ONE MORE question, do I measure the stack height before or after soaking them in oil (I'm imagining that the fiber stacks may expand a bit in oil)??
posted October 17, 2003 03:00 PM
The clutch kit that we offer is designed to work just as it is sold and does just that. Of course, any of you are free to re-engineer it. Free enterprise and creativity are wonderful. But you should have correct information.
The stock stack height is totally irrelevant to the operation of the clutch pack we supply. That spec. is in the book for just one reason. It spells out whether or not a STOCK clutch is properly assembled or worn out. It enables the average shop mechanic to take a simple measurement and quickly rule the clutch "good" or "worn out of spec". The stock height is not relevant to the Muzzy height. They are different clutch packs due to the thicker steels. There are two factors that are critical in stack height; first, if it is too short the hat will bottom in the hub splines as the fibers wear, allowing slippage. Second, if it is too tall the hat can fail to engage on the locating splines which can allow it to tear out the spring perches. Putting in the two steels does absolutely nothing except needlessly increase the stack height (dangerously close to the point it will fail to engage. A by-product of this manipulation of the stack height is the change in angle of the actuator shaft / pull rod interface allowing the inside of the notch in the shaft to contact the pull rod, put a side load on the pull rod, thereby increasing wear and ultimately possibly breaking it.
This was all discussed ad nauseam in 2000 when we first developed the kit. Since then, until the last few days (do I sense an agenda?)there has been virtually NO comment regarding the Muzzy clutch except how well it works. The amount of these in the field is an impressively large number. They work. If you want to fiddle with it, knock yourself out, but don't do it because somebody tells you the way it's done is somehow deficient or failure prone. It is not.
Doug
posted October 17, 2003 04:27 PM
Doug, I think he was trying to see all of the "What If's" before he turned a wrench and how to resolve the problem at 2 am when most problems occur! If he had to "increase stack Height because the clutch pressure plate was bottoming on the Hub (Later on, from wear on the friction plates), he would be a lot better off using an extra steel than using 2 fibers together wouldn't he?? He could add .055 with a 1.4 mm steel, or .063 with a 1.6 mm steel to keep the pressure on the discs. If he does have a problem at "2:AM", now he has some answers and some solutions right then and there.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted October 17, 2003 07:56 PM
Thanks Vincent - that IS what I am trying to do . Doug, I LOVE LOVE LOVE Muzzy products (I actually JUST "finished" my basket/order today (Friday)) - I also have a Muzzy Pipe and I LOVE it (I think ya know that already) and if I had more cash I'd get a 1270 and the Muzzy NOS kit too - I just bought a new house and I'm "house poor" till the spring. I have no hidden agenda - I just want to put the parts in RIGHT the first time (and not blow up my baby). I'm sorry if this thread appears to bash Muzzy, that is NOT my intent, I'm just trying to add new parts and not mess up. I've NEVER done a bike clutch before, so I figured I'd ask all the questions I could before the install. If you look at my first post, I was actually just kinda letting everyoen know how psyched I was at ordering the parts - I've been reading about how cool the Muzzy basket and clutch are since 2000 and I FINALLY have my own comming!! My biggest problem now is figuring out which Muzzy stuff to get next? Stacks, 1270, NOS... so many choices!!! Thank you for the feedback on my questions too - looks like I should just install the Muzzy stuff (make sure the plate height is ok) and just ride the bike... hard to mess up, even for a "newer" wrench like me!
posted October 18, 2003 03:56 AM
Coby Adams double stacks a metal plate with the Muzzy kit Doug, but I guess Coby Adams does not know what he is doing huh??
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THEY NEVER ASK HOW JUST WHO!
posted October 18, 2003 04:24 PM
Like TurboBlew said I also double up steels in the middle of the pack with an extra steel to get the height correct. I use a single spare 1.6 mixed in with the Muzzys stack of 2.0 steels to get it right.
posted October 18, 2003 09:07 PM
Glade to be getting all this info, as I'm doing the muzzy set up next year. Thanks guys !
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768 Ryderz
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posted October 18, 2003 10:41 PM
Edited By: entropy on 18 Oct 2003 23:46
oh BOY another clutch stack height post!!!!! woo-hoo!!!! One o' my favorite topics!!!
My experience...
stock pack = 2.241" (12 fibers, 11 x 1.6mm steels)
Muzzy pack = 2.206" (11 fibers, 10 x 2.0mm steels)
If you use the Muzzy pack, 11 fibers and 10 x 2mm steels, the stackheight will be about .035" less than stock just like JSshow says.
If you take out one of the 2mm steels and replace it with 1 x 1.6mm AND 1 x 1.4mm steel the stack height will be a bit MORE than stock, i.e. 2.246"
If you take out one of the 2mm steels and replace it with 2 x 1.4mm steels the stack height will be a bit LESS than stock, i.e. 2.238"
BUT, BUT, BUT, in my experience, like Doug says, the Muzzy pack height DOES NOT WEAR OUT FASTER than the OEM pack height.
I AM "the Antichrist of clutch longevity" and I EARNED that title by Jeepers!!!!
Learning to get my TeamFatAss (765#) outa the hole when i had stock motor & arm took technique (snap & slide), lots of practice, and a close relationship with Ron Ayers. I tried every combination of stack height, and even had a bit of "secret" machining done to my pressure plate to avoid it bottoming out when fibers got thin, i.e. .0126" (.0129" new). Turns out the maching was a waste of time.
Bottom line in my experience is that if you TFA-ers wanna get mojo ET's with a stock length 12, you need to snap the clutch out off the line, then squeeze the lever in just a bit and slip the clutch outa the hole, keep rpm (and hp)up, and replace clutches often. No matter what combo of plates & height I tried, it really made no difference in longevity. Hi rpm and slipping the clutch outa the hole got me into low 9.6's at 144mph.
If you want to sacrifice a tenth or two and forego the relationship with RonAyers, just don't slip the clutch so much, cool the clutch for 30 min between passes.
PS: anyone wanna buy a bunch of 1.4 & 1.6 steels??? They've been gathering dust for 2 years...
PPS: if your stack height is too high you WILL have problems with clutch dis-engagement.
PPPS: I thought we completely wore DougM out on this topic 3 years ago; its good to see that the ole man still has some juice left in him on this topic.
BTW: MTC says use 2.25 stack height on their lock up because a lower height may give no cable free play. I may keep those 1.4's & 1.6's to experiment with...
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
posted October 19, 2003 07:07 PM
Entropy, Waddaya mean OLD? Why I oughta come down there and wip your aa... Oh woops, I uh, Oh you know what? I AM old.....
posted October 19, 2003 07:53 PM
My stock motor ZX-12 pipe,commander, arm 9.39 @ 144, 1.44 60ft. On the spray duel stage dry 8.69 @ 160.
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THEY NEVER ASK HOW JUST WHO!
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Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted October 20, 2003 08:17 AM
Hey, my numbers are better than that by a second! I did it in over 10 seconds! ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted October 21, 2003 12:30 AM
Here we go again, The manual tells the story. The plates that muzzy sell, you can order from the factory. They aren't doing anything special, just putting together stock stuff and selling it to you. Jshow is correct, you must add the extra metal or fiber to get proper thickness.
posted October 21, 2003 04:02 AM
I disagree! I run all 2mm steels and it works fine for me. and I weigh 235 and have high 1.4's on my 60'? My clutch holds up much better now then before, oh and yes Muzzy has never stated they have some seceret fiber and steel, but they do have them and they are a hell of a lot less $$ then your local Dealer and 99.9% of the time they have them in stock. and how in the hell do you add an extra fiber?
Mad Mike
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
quote:Here we go again, The manual tells the story. The plates that muzzy sell, you can order from the factory. They aren't doing anything special, just putting together stock stuff and selling it to you. Jshow is correct, you must add the extra metal or fiber to get proper thickness.
COmpare the price of the entire Kit to stock from Ron Ayers and theres is cheaper, not to mention the machine work on the Hub, not to mention the engineering to come up with that!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted October 21, 2003 07:45 AM
Vincent,
I appreciate your explanation and support, but I say again-The height of the stack we sell in our package is not "incorrect" it is just different from the stock height. The stock stack height is merely a wear guide for the use of 1.6 mm plates. The addition of the extra steel does nothing regarding the operation of the clutch. Of course, it doesn't hurt anything, either I guess.
Toyz, we've never "hidden" the source of the plates, it's common knowledge by now and in fact, as Vincent points out, we sell the whole shebang for a price lower than you can piece it together.
Doug
posted October 21, 2003 09:46 AM
My 2 cents I have a 1270 w/ the full Muzzy clutch kit (2 years old). I replaced all fibers this spring with new. Steel plates are original from kit, but looked fine. I'm not a dragracer, but ride hard in the twistys as well as at trackdays here at Road America.
After recent track day at RA, I was getting very noticeable clutch slippage in 4th & 5th gears. After adding an extra steel, the slippage seems cured (maybe only temporarily ?). It is touchier on disengagement, though.
posted October 21, 2003 12:18 PM
By putting in the extra steel plate you've added a little preload to the spring pressure. As the clutch continues to wear it will, sooner or later require new fibers. You are prolonging the inevitable need for replaceing the consumable parts of the clutch. Nothing wrong with that in the short term.
We sometimes tune the desired slip amount by putting washers under the springs to decrease slip or by shortening the springs to increase it.
Doug
posted October 21, 2003 01:27 PM
2 Cents That makes good sense, Doug. Sounds like stiffer springs is really what I need. I'm running the 3 Muzzy springs & 3 ZX6R springs right now.
Do you think there's any chance the hat and inner hub were making contact ? I keep forgetting to check these without plates to get a visual reference on the outer basket.
posted October 22, 2003 10:26 AM
OK - thanks again for all of your input guys... here is the BIG news... I HAVE MY CLUTCH PARTS NOW . They were at my doorstep today when I got home!!!!! Another quick question, I am still waiting for a stock clutch cover from Ron Ayers... in the meantime, I'd like to give the new parts a good cleaning. I was planning on blowing compressed air all over the parts to clean them, but what else should I be doing? I know there was some talk about cleaning the steel plates with some kind of acid compound?? Can someone clarify and tell me what else everyone recommends. I CANT WAIT TO GET THIS STUFF IN MY BIKE!!!
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posted October 17, 2003 02:49 PM
. Doug, I LOVE LOVE LOVE Muzzy products (I actually JUST "finished" my basket/order today (Friday)) - I also have a Muzzy Pipe and I LOVE it (I think ya know that already) and if I had more cash I'd get a 1270 and the Muzzy NOS kit too - I just bought a new house and I'm "house poor" till the spring. I have no hidden agenda - I just want to put the parts in RIGHT the first time (and not blow up my baby). I'm sorry if this thread appears to bash Muzzy, that is NOT my intent, I'm just trying to add new parts and not mess up. I've NEVER done a bike clutch before, so I figured I'd ask all the questions I could before the install. If you look at my first post, I was actually just kinda letting everyoen know how psyched I was at ordering the parts - I've been reading about how cool the Muzzy basket and clutch are since 2000 and I FINALLY have my own comming!! My biggest problem now is figuring out which Muzzy stuff to get next? Stacks, 1270, NOS... so many choices!!! Thank you for the feedback on my questions too - looks like I should just install the Muzzy stuff (make sure the plate height is ok) and just ride the bike... hard to mess up, even for a "newer" wrench like me!
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