wannabe
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posted September 23, 2003 11:54 AM
degreeing cams
Over the weekend, I helped a buddy out with degreeing the cams on his turbo Z1. I'd never degreed cams before. Man, I gotta say that this is a job for a patient person. After half an hour, I was ready to kick the bike over.
What's cool is that I now understand Doug Meyer's 'lobe centers' article on the Muzzy's website.
My buddy wouldn't quit until we got to within half a degree. How close do you guys normally get before you call it good?
  
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k bryant
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posted September 23, 2003 11:57 AM
Half a degree. If you're going to the trouble to do it, do it right. Anymore than a half degree, you're not doing it right.
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claude
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posted September 23, 2003 12:34 PM
I scanned two reports (written by Kevin Cameron and published into Cycle magazine) about the "why" and the "how" of cam degreeing. If some want a copy, just e-mail me at claudevail@videotron.ca and I'll forward them to you.
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wannabe
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posted September 23, 2003 12:57 PM
You have mail, Claude.
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entropy
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posted September 23, 2003 04:43 PM
My 2cents:
I'd agree with k bryant IF, IF, IF you know exactly what settings do exactly what on yr bike. For an absolutely stock bike, prolly the OEM settings are worth getting to within 1/2 a degree. Any mods at all, incl aftermarket pipes...
I have had 7? different cam settings ranging from 105/100 to 109/111 (current), all carefully done; several different motor configs, 3 different types of cams (incl stock). Certainly I saw differences, but you have to REALLY pay attention to precise dyno curves to notice/appreciate changes in settings which are even moderately close.
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entropy
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posted September 23, 2003 04:45 PM
quote:
I scanned two reports (written by Kevin Cameron and published into Cycle magazine) about the "why" and the "how" of cam degreeing. If some want a copy, just e-mail me at claudevail@videotron.ca and I'll forward them to you.
Claude,
I would be much appreciative of a copy!!!
guntekd@chevrontexaco.com
Thanks!
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k bryant
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posted September 23, 2003 08:23 PM
entropy - how does it run and what kind of powerband/graph are you getting with such high lobe centers? (109/111)? What are your engine specs?
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entropy
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posted September 24, 2003 12:24 AM
KB,
1427 w/225psi cold cranking. tried 255psi (too hi - starting problems) and 205psi (too lo - power dropped too much). the changes in cranking psi are a combo of int settings and base gasket changes. Stock head, Muzzy cams.
Went to 109 int to bleed off some cranking psi. shape of the hp curve is fine, not real peaky. Had 3 toasted clutch fibers on the last dyno tuning session, suspect wheel was slipping so the dyno curve is prolly not perfect.
the lobe centers are set taking into account Lee's recs on his cams. my set of Lee's cams got dinged when a valve let go on the dyno. I started with Muzzy recs but moved to Lee's to cut cranking psi and hell, he sure seems to know what he is talking about.
I am NO expert, lotta trial & error, lotta stoopid questions to folks on the boards, lotta depending upon JohnnyCheese building/tuning. Bike seems to be hauling ass tho, even in Houston's swamp weather. 
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k bryant
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posted September 24, 2003 11:56 AM
Cool. Give yourself more credit. For not being an "expert", you know alot. Sometimes the coolest trick, is simply knowing what question to ask and who to ask it to (as in does the guy giving you the answer know shite about what he's talking about).
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entropy
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posted September 25, 2003 12:10 AM
quote:
... Sometimes the coolest trick, is simply knowing what question to ask and who to ask it to...
Man o' man, isn't that the truth! You have to know 2/3's of the answer in order to ask the right question AND to know to whom you should ask it.
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entropy
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posted September 25, 2003 01:54 AM
ALERT!!!!!
Anyone who hasn't asked Claude for a copy of the cam material he offered to send... DO IT NOW!
Like the B-52's used to say it's "dang good stuff..."
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ra12r
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posted September 25, 2003 05:41 PM
I recomend that folks learn as much as you can about cams. There is information at most web sites of cam companies. I got a degree kit, learned how to do them and checked my own cams. I discovered that my cams were not where i "PAID" the guy to put them.
So, KCADBY, this is why when you ask why i haven't or don't post numbers and you think i am just hiding. I can NOW profile my own cams, and yes they are set RIGHT this time to where I want them.
The mechanics at many of these shops are ALL TALK and not very specific when they build the motors. Degreeing cams is not just a simple thing. It takes some specific geometry and mathmatics to get it right. You have to been very percise in your methodology. 1 degree is not much at all!!! I read where some guys can and have done it with the motor in the frame........all i can say is WOW!!!
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wannabe
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posted September 26, 2003 08:39 AM
I haven't tried it on the ZX-12 yet, but we degreed the cams on my buddy's Z1 without taking the motor out of the frame. Is this a big deal?
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claude
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posted September 26, 2003 09:17 AM
Same here; I degreed them a few times on my ZX-11 with the engine still in the frame. I suppose it is different for a ZX-12R though...
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wannabe
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posted September 26, 2003 09:24 AM
Now, doing it by yourself. That's a big deal! 
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psycho1122
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posted September 27, 2003 08:25 PM
entropy; I get 230 psi cold on a 1270 w/ cams set at 105.5 in/ 99.5 ex.
Is this a "good" cranking psi #??
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entropy
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posted September 28, 2003 12:39 AM
psycho,
230-ish was what I was aiming for. "good"???? beats me, I'm not an expert, but:
255-260 gave starting problems when hot (220+hp)
205-210 started fine but hp was off (200hp)
For my set up, 230psi +/- seemed a good middleground (210+hp)
I only tried 109/111 cam settings with current spacer/gasget/CR setup so I don't really know if other settings might be better. All I know is that this combo got me into the 8's for the first time I'm a "trial & error" typeguy!
Have you got yer bike to the track?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 28, 2003 05:57 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 28 Sep 2003 06:59
Somthing to think about when degreeing cams is the consistancy of how you degree the cams.
For instance, when I degree cams on anything that has more than two sprockets and a tensioner, I use a snap-on torque-o-meter for rotating the assembly and then without letting off all the tension, hold tension just a few ft lbs less than whats required to rotate the assembly when stopped at the desired lift for checking.
You will notice that if you back off all tension on the crankshaft/chain assy the degree wheel will move back slightly. Just a tidbit to improve your accuracy.
Another issue is dynamic vs static cam timing. You are setting the static cam timing when doing a typical cam timing procedure.
Its not really important what the actual cam timing is when the engine is at say, 8,000 rpm. But it would be interesting to see what the dynamic cam timing is when the engine is reving. It might be right at what the static is set to, i dont know. Again in the real world its not an issue because if you change the static you change the dynamic the difference if any would be the same as long as the same tensioner and same parts are used.
I found that cranking pressure, on the zx12r anyway, is directly related to the power produced below the peak output. Or about 1000 rpm below the peak. After peak power suffers as cranking pressure is raised.
Thats just somthing I noticed on my 12r with factory cams and displacement. A 1270 could react slightly different and a 1361 will certainaly react differently due to piston/valve relationship differences due to the stroke change. I'm not sure exactly how thou. I think Muzzys would have the answers for that question because they said they did extensive 12r cam timing tests not too long ago. I'm not sure on how many different displacement engines they did this testing on. They might or might not want to divuldge that info. I can understand why they wouldnt, just like any other shop. The cost to obtain that info can never be recouped if they give it away.
But you guys seem to have some good info for the owners of 1361's etc.
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MadMike
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posted September 29, 2003 05:28 PM
can someone please email me a copy of it! thanks and much appreciated!!
Mad Mike
madmike1209@mchsi.com
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claude
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posted September 29, 2003 06:03 PM
quote:
can someone please email me a copy of it! thanks and much appreciated!!
Mad Mike
madmike1209@mchsi.com
I suppose you want a copy of the cam reports? I just forwarded them to you.
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wannabe
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posted September 29, 2003 06:09 PM
Claude,
Thanks again for sending me those articles!!! Definitely a great read.
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claude
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posted September 30, 2003 04:05 AM
My pleasure, really. I'm always glad to know that such a small task here (scan and e-mail the reports) can be helpful to more people than me alone. My offer is still valid to anyone that want to read about cam degreeing.
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