Alasdair
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 08, 2003 12:49 PM
Full muzzy system
Hey, all.
I have just had a full Muzzy system installed on my '01 12R. The bike is otherwise completely stock. But no Power Commander of any sort has yet been installed, as the shop which put on the exhaust advised me I may not need a PC. They thought I should go out and try it for a few days, as some who had systems put on their 12s preferred to go without a PC altogether. The bike now runs very poorly, except when above 5500 rpm. There is a bogging, almost like a poorly tuned carburated engine, up until 2500 rpm, then a surge until 4000, and then there is a massive flat spot until 5000 when things begin to pick up. My mileage is also down by about 1/3, which to me is ridiculous. Does anybody else have experience with this problem, and, if so, what have you done?
____________
Cat couldn't scratch it.
   
|
Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted September 08, 2003 01:12 PM
lol....gee anyone hear of this before??????? lol
Alas do a search here on the board, this subject has ben debated over and over again......most guys run a PC with any full system..that is the norm.......you will find all of the info you could want though by doing the search......
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
|
posted September 08, 2003 01:36 PM
yup
|
alasdair
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 08, 2003 01:54 PM
So, I did a search and just about every post ever posted came back -- way too much. There seems to be a consensus that a full system necessitates some sort of device which handles the need for a new for new mapping. Is there another device besides the PC, or Yoshimura's device? Somebody mentioned something that stays accessible to the rider, perhaps on the tank, and which he can reprogram as he rides along.
I'm asking you guys because the shop told me that the 11 on-board sensors of the stock bike will compensate for any adjustments made to the fuel/exhaust flow, and that a Power Commander was just a waste of money. That didn't make sense to me, and now that the bike is struggling while below 5500 rpm, I am determined to fix the mess.
Thanks for the help.
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted September 08, 2003 02:28 PM
Well you can turn the idle up some to help the sub 2,000rpm surging.
YOu can also advance the timing 2degrees to smooth out the low end as well. (slotting the pickup rotor or installing smaller bolts)
A PC3 or Yosh box is necessary for the best drivability.
____________
Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted September 08, 2003 03:36 PM
With engines in general, when you change one aspect of the fuel flow (i.e. exhaust), it will have an effect on all the other aspects of the process (intake, combustion, etc.). In the "old day", one might add a filter or jet kit to address a "stumble", but usually it wasn't too bad when you just ran the pipe by itself.
With today's "high tech" FI and ECM boxes, one would be lead to believe that the "computer" could compensate for any changes. At least that's what we have always been told. DON'T believe that crap. I don't care what the "source" is. Not that we are "all knowing" here, but we do know better than that. If not just through collective experiences. You will also hear folks say that the brand of exhaust they are running doesn't have that problem or something like that.
The point is that your "computer" isn't "compensating" and you don't own "Brand X" pipe. You have a Muzzy. So such comments offer as much assistance as the previous one.... none.
Now, the 12R has a few "quirks" that one doesn't notice in stock trim, but when a pipe is installed, it's like the bar lights coming on at 5 am. One is due to the radical grind of the cams, the pipe causes the bike to idle roughly. A quick remedy would be to turn the idle up to about 1500 RPMs. Another method used by some is to slightly adjust the TPS, but this will have an effect on all throttle openings. Kind of like using a hammer when a screwdriver would work better.That doesn't mean that you won't want to change the TPS setting, but keep in mind that moving it just a fraction make a huge difference. I believe the spec voltage range on the TPS is 1.082v~1.086v. In other words, not a whole lot of tolerance.
The other quirk is that the 12R has a "stumble" at around 5000 to 5500 RPMs. It varies from bike to bike and can start as early as 4500 and end as high as 5700. The factors as to why this is are beyond me, but even though you don't notice it that much in stock trim, it will show on a dyno. Before the PCIII was available, there was a trick in "fooling" the ECM in to running a little richer, This was done by putting a 470 ohm 1/4 watt resistor on the orange wire of the water temp sensor. It's located on the left side, towards the the bottom of the cylinder head. I used bullet connectors so I could remove it and reinstall it easily. I also slightly tweaked the TPS and actually carried a #25 torx bit (with the hole in the center of it) so I could do "adjustments in the field".
Another thing I did was Y2K's timing mod. Timing advancers were not available at that time and something had to be improvised in the mean time. All you do to move the timing pickup is elongate the mounting holes. Easier said than done. Now that timing advancers are available, it's probably just as easy to get one since it would cost about the same as replacing the timing pickup if you screw up drilling the holes. Still, if your as cheap as I am, your probably grabbing the drill right now. Keep in mind that when you use the stock bolts, it's good for about a 2 degree advance. Using bolts with a smaller head will let you move the pickup a little further and will give you about a 2.5 degree advance.
Some search words you might want to use are "resistor", "stumble" and "idle".
Sadly, to take full (and I do mean FULL) advantage of the new exhaust system you would need to do the following:
1. Aftermarket filters
2. Timing advancer set between +2 to +5 degrees (not necessary with a PCIIIR)
3. PCIII (w/ advancer) or PCIIIR (wo/advancer)
4. Custom map of PCIII/IIIR
Now seeing as how that all adds up to about the same price as you paid for the exhaust system in the first place (or even more), it neither seems fair or right that you'd have to spend all that to get a new exhaust system to work properly. I agree. The bottom line is that you might be able to do a tweak here and there that makes the bike "ridable", but to make it "electric smooth" (well... almost) and have gobs of brute power, you'll have to pay.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
alasdair
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 08, 2003 06:06 PM
Crikey! What a load of information. Thank you. Much of it is beyond me, but not all. And that which is beyond is probably accessible to certain friends of mine. I have a PCIIIr on order, and know of a friend's friend who has gone through much of the same mess, so I hear, and has developed customs maps for his 12.
One other question: what did you use to shield the bottom of the right-hand fairing from the heat of the pipe, which for some reasons sits right close against the plastic. I know there are heat tapes (in the airline, they call them "speed tape") but is there a specific brand you could recommend?
____________
Cat couldn't scratch it.
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted September 08, 2003 06:23 PM
Space the rear most fairing bolt/allen head out by putting a few washers behind it. If you still need more, file down the "rolled edge" on the fairing. If you still need more, just stick some "moto-tile" on the inside of the fairing.. You can get it at just about any m/c dealer. Commonly used on Dirt bikes for the same problem. Make sure you've got the body clamp adjusted on the muffler properly, and the s-bend rotated right, and maybe you won't need to do anything. 1/8" or more of clearance on the fairing back there and you should not have any problem, but the moto-tile is always cheap insurance.
Though mine is an '03, the Muzzy map that came with the PC3r that I bought from them works great and has only the somewhat common hesitation @ 2500 rpm.
|
Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted September 08, 2003 06:53 PM
i only use the factory insulation, I havent added any extra to my 02 with my Muzzy system, and have had no issues with melting or clearance.....
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
MarkZX12RKX500
Expert Class
Posts: 159
|
posted September 08, 2003 07:07 PM
 Edited By: MarkZX12RKX500 on 8 Sep 2003 20:09
I used the tape that came with it on the bottom where it comes close no melting here.
It's the full Titanium and it gets hotter then stainless.
|
tarbaby
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
|
posted September 10, 2003 04:09 PM
Hi Alasdair, the PC is coming in on the 12th?
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted September 10, 2003 05:04 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 10 Sep 2003 18:25
No offence to them  but...I wouldn't let that Dealership change my oil!!! If that is what they think about PCs and Yosh EMS!?!?!?
They could NOT have EVER ridden a "properly tuned" (WITH PC) ZX12 if they are saying that ...
I have tunned (mapped) SEVERAL ZX12s (and MANY other fuel injected bikes) with PowerCommanders and would NOT OWN
a Fuel Injected bike WITHOUT ONE (unless the bike was showroom stock)...
I have yet to see anything that works anywhere near as good as the Power Commander or Yosh EMS...
It "maps" the Injection at every 500RPM increment AND...0% 2% 5% 10% 20%40% 60% 80% 100% throttle position...
That is over 200 "cells" that can be adjusted to make the bike RUN RIGHT...
The newest version of the PowerCommander (USB) maps at ever 250RPM increment!!!
I haven't been lucky enough to map a ZX12 with one of those yet but can only imagine how much better I can get them to run between 2-3 thousand RPM (it is VERY difficult to make ZX12s run "perfect" in that RPM range with some...MOST exhaust sytems)...
If you by a PowerCommander and get it Custom Mapped somewhere that has the "Tunning Link" (and knows what they are doing AND knows ZX12s) you will be VERY happy with the results 
Click on http://www.dynojet.com/
Power Commanders
Tunning Centers...to see if there is a shop that Dyno Tunes (WITH Tunning Link) within resonable distance to you...
|
Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
|
posted September 10, 2003 06:53 PM
Even I will give a stamp of approval to Kevin regarding his knowledge on "mapping"!!!
____________
All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
|
alasdair
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 12, 2003 03:07 PM
I have wrapped the pipe at the weld joint where it goes from two into one with some of that fabric heat wrap which is used on dirt bikes. The shop installed an extra spacer at the bottom-rear bracket which should have kept the fairing away from the pipe, but the tape which they used to insulate the fairing looks like ducting tape (not duct tape) and is already scorched. I haven't found the "moto-tile" yet. Perhaps we don't have it up here in Canada. As far as mapping goes, I will have the shop download the Muzzy map for the '01 12R, but there is a place in Richmond here which can, I am told, set up a bike for optimum fuel delivery in 100rpm "cells". This advice was from a guy who races and claims their 100rpm mapping work on his bike has it running perfectly. I haven't yet gone to Future Cycle, because the service apparently costs another $400. As for the advice against the PC, it wasn't the shop, but one guy's opinion, and not a mechanic (though he says a mechanic agreed with him). But then, he also told me that the '00 and '01 ZX12-Rs were unlimited for speed -- that their top end as delivered stock was the most that the stock engine configuration could manage. I have not yet installed Muzzy's delimiter and proven him wrong. Has anybody here tried that thing on their bike?
____________
Cat couldn't scratch it.
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted September 12, 2003 05:08 PM
2000 was unrestricted. i'm pretty sure 2001 got the 186mph limiter tho. doesnt make much diff anyway. best anyone got out of a stock 2000 was like 194, but usually more like 190.
100rpm increments? what are they using for that? it aint a PC3. there is at least one guy in the area (surrey) who specializes in 12s. he does his mapping seat of the pants normally i believe. ZX23RR, u wanna elaborate?
|
alasdair
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
|
posted September 12, 2003 07:22 PM
Yes, a guy named Frank, I hear. But Mark Kruger at Richmond Motorsports recommended Future Cycle for their work at mapping. And I am assuming that it is a PCIIIr.
____________
Cat couldn't scratch it.
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted September 13, 2003 12:58 AM
Frank is ZX23RR. he certainly seems to know his zx12r's. nice guy.
i'd ask around a bit as to opinions on Modern. can't say i personalyl would take Richmond's word for much, esp not their service dept. doesnt seem to have a very good rep.
finally, i definitely know that the PC can't map to 100rpm cells, so i'd ask for clarification regarding that claim before i do anything. either they're using something else or they dont really know what they're talkin about. or maybe the guy just misquoted himself. i'd jsut make sre everyone's got their stories straight before shellin out any money is what i'm sayin.
|
jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
|
posted September 13, 2003 06:25 AM
I with you guys.
|
Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted September 13, 2003 07:42 AM
dont listen to Jon, only thing that comes out of his mouth is Jizz.......caue he gets more than he can swollow......anyone ever notice the resemblence between Jon and Lil Kim....she has the same problem.....
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted September 13, 2003 03:24 PM
As stated above...PC3s map at each 500...the NEWWER PCs are supposed to map at every 250...(I've seen one so far that DOES map at 250 but it wasn't on a ZX12) you can believe me when I tell you that every 500 works GOOOD and 250 would be just wonderful...
PLEASE let us know what the guy says about 100??? because it CAN'T be a PowerCommander...
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC