worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 02, 2003 01:08 PM
braking forces
Somebody help me understand or explain: My buddy jato says that he can stop his stock-braked KLR from speed as fast as my big-rotored/braidedlines/metallic padded KLR from the same speed. While I agree that both bikes will eventually stop if you use equal force on the brake lever of each bike, mine will stop sooner because of the better interaction of the aftermarket components with each other and how much quicker it the retards forward rolling motion of the front wheel/tire combo at speed. Or did I just waste $300?
jato and I ask: HOW? WHY?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
  
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted August 02, 2003 01:46 PM
depends on how good the original brakes are. if u can keep it at the point where u'r about to endo the whole time, then u can stop just as fast with the stockers. however, it's much more work for the rider right? u gotta squeeze harder, have less feel, and the brakes prolyl fade a whole bunch.
|
jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
|
posted August 02, 2003 04:04 PM
Not to mention what's required to slow mass.
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted August 02, 2003 05:00 PM
If you upgraded the brake on the front of the KLR...yes you probably could stop faster...but you can also lock the brake faster too.
Bigger rotors = more brake force.
I doubt seriously the guy is gonna stop faster than you from 65mph...unless he is hell bent on tucking the front end....lol.
I have to admit the biggest help on the KLR was doing the front and rear suspension. The spring rates are soooo soft stock.
Cool bike. I put about 23k on mine in the 3 yrs of ownership.
|
necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
|
posted August 02, 2003 08:01 PM
You're asking if everything else is equal except the braided brake lines....
I have to think about this one. His will be mushy, but what does that mean?
The brake pistons have to put the same amount of force on both bikes. That's a given, but what happens when you pull on the lever?
I believe you will stop faster because less of the available pressure is going to expand the brake hoses, so more of the pressure will be transmitted to the brakes.
He has to pull the lever further.
I am thinking as I am typing. I'll have to think about this some more though.
|
Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted August 03, 2003 04:41 AM
I am thinking that the physics of it all, is that the bike can only stop so fast, once you exceed that limit, the tire will lock, or if traction permits, the bike will start to stoppie, and the higher up it goes, the less pressure you can put on the lever. Now what the brake upgrades will do for you , is 1. Give you a better lever feel, 2. Ensure the brakes resist fade, 3. Give you more control of the stopping process. That is just how I see it. I am no expert though. Jim
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
|
posted August 03, 2003 09:38 AM
Yes, the highest brakeing force one can apply is when the rear end starts coming up.
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 03, 2003 12:07 PM
I'm thinking that the upgrades make the bike come to a complete stop sooner all other things being equal (ie. same rider, same-type bikes, exactly the same tires on the same surface at the same speed). Yes, it does feel better, and yes, one does feel in better control, but separate that, is there a mechanical advantage of a large rotor over a smaller one on the same bike if the pad size is the same?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
|
posted August 03, 2003 02:17 PM
There is a mechanical advantage due to the larger radius (or longer lever arm if you are talking that way). However, you can't get much better than locking the front tire. A guy that is really good with his stock brakes can stop sooner than a dolt with the latest high zoot setup. Like so many things, it often comes down to the rider.
____________
If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
 
|
swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
|
posted August 03, 2003 03:40 PM
It's not a question of how QUICK you stop, but what kind of feel you have at the lever when you use the brakes. Feel your buddy's brakes. Bet they feel mushy. Your's on the other hand, feel firm, like a .... well, firm.  That means that you are able to MODULATE the amount of braking force you are using.
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 03, 2003 04:17 PM
Ok, I understand the 'locking the front tire' part because both systems (stock vs upgraded) will eventually lock the front tire when you give it an equal amount of a good squeeze...but my thinking is that, if that's the case, the upgraded components will permit the rider to 'lock' the front tire sooner, thus the retardation of forward velocity occurs sooner, thus the bike will or could come to a complete stop sooner, right? (all other things being equal, of course)...or am I missing something here?...
...and why did my stock front brakes feel as though it was 'thinking' about stopping (that uncomfortable 'glide' upon squeezing the lever, then squeezing the lever as hard as I could without skidding the front tire) vs how my upgraded front brakes actually retards speed RIGHT NOW upon squeezing the lever, then and stops the bike RIGHT NOWwithout that uncomfortable gliding drama?...I'm thinking the better frictional properties of the upgraded pads and the larger rotor, and the more effcient hydraulic pressure delivery of the braided lines all conspire to approach front tire skid sooner (without skidding) and completely stop the bike sooner...is this thinking faulty or wishful or correct?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted August 03, 2003 04:21 PM
makes sense to me wormy.
hey, u get my IM's or email?
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 03, 2003 04:48 PM
yup...responded everytime...still up in the air, tho I'm working on it...thanks, bro...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 03, 2003 04:54 PM
 Edited By: worm~hole on 3 Aug 2003 17:55
quote:
It's not a question of how QUICK you stop, but what kind of feel you have at the lever when you use the brakes. Feel your buddy's brakes. Bet they feel mushy. Your's on the other hand, feel firm, like a .... well, firm. That means that you are able to MODULATE the amount of braking force you are using.
...thus it costs mere mortals additional bucks in upgraded components to be able stop just as quickly or quicker than the gods using stock components...hey, I could buy that argument...as a matter of fact, I did...$300...because I'm worth it 
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted August 03, 2003 05:12 PM
weird, i never got em. hmmm... not good.
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 03, 2003 05:39 PM
...would be coool if there was a way to save IMs...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted August 03, 2003 05:48 PM
PM's are saved. but yeah, it would be a good idea. one of these days...
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted August 04, 2003 12:05 AM
Edited By: flite leader on 4 Aug 2003 01:09
all things being equal
same results.... the laws of physics dont change because you spent $$$
if bigger were better... most would run bigger rubber up front.... has been tried.... & proven not to work
there are advantages to making the changes
& seldom are all things equal
can a man with stock brakes outbrake
another on a bike with upgraded componets
sure.... happens all the time
do some & a few riders ever get the full potential of
of stock of aftermarket components
few & seldom
after you get used to either
you confidence goes up
use the best you have with the best you got
be safe
knee down revs up !!
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted August 04, 2003 07:40 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 4 Aug 2003 08:51
..so, upgraded pads, upgraded discs (radial vented or gas slotted or drilled), and braided lines are basically a waste of money then...its better to eventually learn the full potential of the bike's and your's...
...so what, then, is the purpose of all these upgrades if the stock will work as well as an upgraded system...to answer my own question, its like this: a riding god on a bone stock wobblin'-n-slidin' 500EX will lap a circuit faster than a mortal, who's not comfortable with the wobble/slide, ever could on the same bike...
...but, if the mere mortal equips that same bike with better components to tame some of that wobble and slide, confidence goes up, and he could get closer to that god's lap times...now put that god on the upgraded bike and the god's lap times get even quicker...
...same with braking, yes?...the god could or will stop the upgraded bike even quicker cuz' the modulation and feel will change and confidence goes up as well...and the cycle begins until something new comes along to assist positively in the process...
...I really liked this topic, it made me think...it bent my mind...my brain not so big
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted August 04, 2003 12:05 PM
i defintiyl wouldnt say its a waste of money. it's just that much easier to achieve max breaking. less effort, and get there sooner as necro said. but more important is the feel & less fade. i know i felt way better after changing pads & lines on the 12. defintily not wasted money!
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted August 04, 2003 03:43 PM
god wouldnt ride a wobbly slidin 5ooex
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
|
posted August 04, 2003 10:41 PM
Let's do a mental experiment.
We all agree that rubber lines are all meshy. But what does that mean?
Okay, here's the experiment:
Assume the break lines are filled with nothing but air. That would of course make them meshy. Now imagine pulling the brake lever half way on a regular bike and on the bike with the air lines, again both levers are pulled half way. Which bike will stop faster?
The bike with the air will not stop as fast because the pressure is "being used" to bring the air molecules closer together. Once those molecules get tightly compacted or compressed then they will be able to transmit enough pressure to the brake pistons.
This is an exteme case of course, but the same idea applies to the rubber lines. The difference between the SS brake lines and the rubber lines is small, but it's there nonetheless.
____________
3829
|
necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
|
posted August 04, 2003 10:42 PM
Wow, I think this was the most useful post I've written in a while
____________
3829
|
necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
|
posted August 04, 2003 10:42 PM
Of course the previous one wasn't very useful
____________
3829
|
ScaredyCat
Expert Class
Posts: 201
|
posted August 05, 2003 02:23 AM
Yeah, but for the same piston ratios (master vs caliper), for any given force at the bar you get the same force at the pad on the two set-ups.
The mushy one will just move further before the force is the same.
And on most modern bikes with decent pads and properly bled lines you can lock the front wheel anyway, which is the real limit most of the time - what better components give you is more feel and reduced fade. And braided hoses look way cooler.
Just my 2c.
____________
If it ain't broke, BREAK IT.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC