jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted July 16, 2003 01:26 PM
Thinkin' I shoulda got the TI can instead of the CF can
So I get the full Muzzy exhaust system for my 12 with carbon fibre can. It wasn't until after I had received the systme and installed some FAQ's on the Muzzy web site about running your bike WFO or high RPM 'cause it'll burn the can. It further stated to be careful about keeping the packing fresh.
Well, I tend to run the bike WFO screaming on the back roads. And, well, the can is starting to look like it's burning where the mid pipe enters the can.
I only have maybe less than 1k miles on it so far.
I'm guessing this is normal??? I guessing that I should have just gotten the TI can instead.
  
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 16, 2003 01:52 PM
jon,
The CF does take more care, but WFO MEANS WFO, not just hard sport riding. The one thing you CANNOT do is dyno it without air flowing over it. As long as YOU KEEP PACKING IN IT, anything short of repeated 3 mile top speed runs won't generally hurt it.
Doug
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 16, 2003 02:16 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 16 Jul 2003 15:17
Doug, I regularly ride with Jonathan and can attest to the following:
1. He basically does no in-town, stop and go riding.
2. Has yet to have done a single dyno run with the new system.
3. No repeated stationary burn-outs or such.
4. At almost every moment the throttle is twisted, there is a proportional speed (and appropriate airflow) attached to it's position.
5. Any TS run is immediately followed with additional "cool down" riding.
In other words, his new canister is already starting to look like mine with the only difference is that my canister has about 42,000 more miles and about 20 more dyno runs on it. I doubt if he has much more then a 1000 miles on it, if that much.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted July 16, 2003 07:18 PM
Reads like you've got an open or shallow area in your packing material. It's fairly common to compress, push, etc. It's not just WFO heat related. It's about the exhaust pulse/pressure at those rpm levels also. It can compress and push packing like you would not believe. Unfortunetly with carbon, most of the manufactures have to settle for balance between price and durability. So most use shells that range in the 375 - 600 degree range before they will discolor. Also depends on how how much fiberglas content they may or may not have in their carbon material/ratio. So if the packing isn't looked after, it can degrade pretty quickly if there is a open/shallow area. The factory race cans are up in the 750 degree + range, but obviously they are repacked/rebuilt every race. The other thing is that they cost 3 -4 times as much. So when you do the math, I doubt very many carbon mufflers would be sold to consumers at $4 - $500 per shell alone.
When you repack, try .023 wire mesh screen around the core first, then use Silent Sport packing and pack it within an inch of its life. Don't scrimp. The can may weigh another pound or so, but the carbon and packing material will last much longer. It will be a little louder, because it's not allowing as much dispertion into the packing material. But it's worth the increased durability.
If it's too much trouble, buy a Ti can from Doug. At least then if you miss a repack schedule, you can take a scotch brite pad and buff the can back to looking as good as new and it's extremely doubtful it would ever fail from heat/packing related issue.
All that aside, Redelk has somekind of record in my book. That's big mileage for a carbon can.
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted July 16, 2003 09:20 PM
quote:
WFO MEANS WFO, not just hard sport riding
What is the difference? I don't keep it wound out all the time in every friggin gear, but I do keep the RPM's up.
So basically, Doug, you are telling me that I bought a can that can't handle what the engine can do?
I don't consider hard sport riding as abuse in this case - but the scenarios that you describe I would certainly expect problems.
K bryant, so then are you telling me the Muzzy packing isn't sufficient?
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kzz1
Zone Head
"Show me whatcha workin with"
Posts: 908
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posted July 16, 2003 09:32 PM
Had a carbon fiber cannister till it burn a hole through it and it was a Yosh. . Friend of mine had a Muzzy carbon cannister and did the same thing. Not sold on carbon cannister as Doug stated : Got to keep re-packing it. Stainless , alumiun or Ti is the way to go. Less headaches.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 16, 2003 10:21 PM
With bearly 1000 miles on the system since it was unpacked from the box it was shipped from Muzzy, I find it hard to believe that the packing "shifted" while the canister was in transit. After examining the canister closer this evening, it appears to be developing a few blisters.
Now I will have to admit, I too have some blisters on my canister as well. The are several very, very small blisters with the majority of them being towards the rear of the canister. After so many miles, dyno runs, track days and inadvertently running the canister completely without packing for probably 4K+ miles... I'm not all that surprised that there a few blisters here and there. It also does not quite have the glossy shine as Jonathan's new canister. Not discolored or yellowed, just not as glossy.
What is strange is the on Jonathan's canister, the blisters I first noticed are at the opposite end, closest to the connecting pipe. Also, the blisters are much larger then what is on mine. My blisters are in small groups with each one being about 1/16". Jonathan's are closer to 3/8" in size.
I understand that the exhaust is likely to be hotter when they first enter the canister. Still, I would have thought that since his has the quite baffle and the combination of it's slightly restrictive nature and it being made of metal (retaining heat), if it would blister anywhere, it would be would be at the tail end.
I didn't look at it that closely, so there might be blisters in locations that I did not notice at first glance. I would also assume that the packing of a freshly constructed canister with a quite baffle would be even tighter then the a "standard" version. I might be worng, but that's seems to be a logical conclusion I'd make.
Where I am confused is that it doesn't make sense that when considering the short length of time that he has owned the system and being personally well aware of his riding style, these problems would exist. I'm still very pleased with my CF canister and will continue to recommend both Muzzy exhaust sytems and the CF canister to anyone. Hopefully, some form of solution can be found to address this. I, for one, have little doubt that one will be found.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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ZX12R NINJA
Expert Class
Posts: 113
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posted July 17, 2003 01:03 AM
I appreciate this info, I was about to buy a CF and this has changed my mind and saved me some money.
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Once a Marine Always a Marine, SEMPER FI
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 17, 2003 06:00 AM
Hey Doug, tell Rob to make a black aluminum canister for us guys that like the black can, then we wont have to bother you about the crappy carbon canister!!!
Why continue to sell the carbon can if they are no good!!!...I am sure there are less people buying the carbon can, so why not make a BLACK ALUMINUM CAN???...Especially since all the manufacturers are making blacked out bikes now!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted July 17, 2003 06:20 AM
Be aware I'm not saying the Muzzy pipe sucks. I'm very pleased with the sound, quality, and price.
However, I'm just trying to determine if I have a special case here, or if there's an opportunity for Muzzy to improve on the can, or if it's normal for a CF can (in which case I think there needs to be a note on the web site for anyone that buys a CF can).
And the info on the FAQ, then, needs to be updated to say: "If you run your bike at RPM's greater than 6k for riding then your can won't look the same. And you'll need to repack it every weekend to keep from burning it."
Here again, I guess I'm one of those stupid guys that didn't know.
I don't mean to take *MY* issue public - I don't believe in that.
But since this is the board that's technically very astute I wanted a gut check with my peers.
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kzz1
Zone Head
"Show me whatcha workin with"
Posts: 908
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posted July 17, 2003 07:43 AM
Sure your right!!! 
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 17, 2003 09:09 AM
Hindle asks that people that buy his system do "NOT" Get anything except the Ti or the Auminum cannister.
Second, Only Akrapovic has the Very special High temp CF, but it does not look as good as Muzzys or anyone elses!
Last, back in the day (When they first came out), the CF was actually a veneer on an aluminum can!.
I do not know how well anodize holds up under heat, but "Black Powder" Coat will. Yoshimura did this nasck in the day of the slip on!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 17, 2003 09:28 AM
Jon,
It sounds like you do have something odd going on, what you're experiencing is not normal. Please call our sales lines and arrange to send it in. To clarify, there are only two kinds of use that are clearly unacceptable with a carbon canister-dynoing with no air and prolonged top gear runs (believe it or not, not much air gets around the pipe at speed- it's in an aerodynamic "shadow"). I meant what I said and only what I said - to me WFO has always meant WIDE FUCKING OPEN and to me that means sixth gear flat on the tank for 5 miles .
Vincent, (with due respect to another old bastard) I assure you that our carbon is every bit as "Very special" as the Akra's...)
Next time just give a call...
DOug
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted July 17, 2003 09:35 AM
I don't want to blow the thread out of line but is it possible that the EGT is higher due to being lean at the top end??
......just a thought.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 17, 2003 01:13 PM
Doug, Then why isn't yours (or the others) as Fugly as the CF Akra uses? (Remember the Ugly one usually has the best stuff!) I also do not remember seeing anyone with an Akrapovic ever having a problem with their CF cannister (Including Dyno Vince / me) where all of the others (Hindle included) have had some problems?
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted July 17, 2003 01:34 PM
Thanks for the info, Doug. I will indeed call you guys and anytime I've even thought there has been an issue you all have been very prompt and attentive and MORE than fair in resolving things.
That being said I didn't post here to air any grievance with Muzzy. It was more of a "Maybe *I* should have known better" post - it was more of my kicking myself in the butt for making the wrong product choice than thinking "Muzzys sucks and they need to replace my can."
I wanted to see what the common expectations were for a CF can. Now I know what I should expect and I know whether I should bitch or not (even though I guess I already did).
Thanks!!!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 17, 2003 02:07 PM
As you should have already known Jonathan... I and my bike are the LAST things you'd want to use for any kind of "reference point". 
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 17, 2003 04:15 PM
Hey DOUG, any comment to my post above???...I really think a Black Aluminum Canister would go over big!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted July 27, 2003 09:03 AM
Hey kids: I called Muzzys the other day and I have an RMA. In talking to Dave he agreed that the can shouldn't be burning like it is.
I went on one last ride this weekend (for Zhoo) and it is almost cracked and burned through on the side.
Will be taking can off and sending in this week. I'll let you all know what they say.
I wondering if the quiet baffle is perhaps a bit too restrictive for the carbon can. It appears to be fine until where the baffle ends - maybe it's concentrating too much of the heat in the opening end of the can..........maybe maybe maybe.........we'll see.
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