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tozzi

Parking Attendant
Posts: 4

posted July 06, 2003 01:47 PM

Need advice please (sorry so long)

Hi. I am currently a zr7s owner. I am ready to move up for a bike with more power and great handling. Money is not a concern because I have narrowed my choices down to 3 bikes. I have a few questions though. I like to ride fast and take the turns hard. My zr7s obviously isnt designed for this, so I have been looking at a zzr1200 because the ZRX1200 doesnt look like it can handle like sportbike, and the fairing on it is a bit small. The zzr1200 is powerful enough, but it is heavy (520lbs. dry). I am also heavy, at 250lbs, and my wife likes to ride with me. My zr7s has a max load of 380lbs. and it will run 100mph with us both on it easy. Do you think the zzr1200 with its extra weight will handle us and still perform in the curves well?

I would love the get the zx12. It is cheaper at the dealership than the zzr1200. I just dont know if the zx12 is good for carrying a passenger with my weight on it. (does anyone know the zx12 max load capacity). Has anyone taken it hard through the twisties with a passenger?
Also, can bar risers be added to make it more like the zzr1200 with less wrist pressure? The zx12 is a lighter bike than the zzr1200 so do you think a lighter bike will perform better with heavier loads on it? Or is it a heavier bike that can take heavier passenger? ???

The other bike I am considering is the zx9. It seems to be even lighter and it has the reputation of being a better street/road bike than a track bike. I am okay with that provided it will handle the turns with my passenger and me better than my zr7. Don't laugh.!! hehe. I have read the reviews on the zx9 and I am beginning to think it gets bad track reviews more because the reviewers are hardcore track riders. Waaay more than I am. I saw a video comparing the zx12 and the hayabusa in the UK. The zx12 was right there with it at all times. - Yet, it is a common misconcepcion that the hayabusa way outdoes the zx12. With that in mind, I believe the zx9 is probably more bike than I can imagine and I would be thrilled with its speed and handling even with a passenger.

I like the zzr1200 most, but fear I would be buying a touring bike and would be disappointed at its handling because of its weight...I cant trust zzr1200 owners' website forums because they are fans of their bikes.

The zx12 comes in second, if you owners think it would carry a passenger well.

The zx9 is last because I dont know enough about it.

Can anyone help me with some insight about the zx12???
It is being sold brand new here in vegas for $8400. Will a heavy guy with a wife be happy on it???

thankx - sorry so long.

frEEK

Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660

posted July 06, 2003 03:10 PM

hi tozzi,

ah, life's difficult decisions eh?

i aint no expert on any of the questions u'v asked, but here's what i'v gathered from other members over time.

the zzr is definitely a quite capable bike, and will undoubtedly be the most comfy and stable 2up. it is definitely not at par with the 12r, but unless u'r draggin knees, it shouldnt matter. ther eare a few members who like to drag knees with their significant others on the back of a 12r, and they seem to like it ok, tho i dont know what the weights of rider & pillion are. the 12r is likely more comfy than the 9 for both rider & pillion, but not by much. in fact the pillion MAY even be more comfy on the 9. there isnt much leg room for the passenger on the 12 & the seat aint super comfy by any means. definitely go for the zzr if pillion comfort is of particular importance. having said that, Vince has a real sweet setup on his 12 that hsi wife seems to find quite comfortable. a far cry from stock tho, and a good chunk of custom fabrication was required. u should be able to find the thread discussing it without too much of a problem.

bar risers are definitely available for the 12. there are a few options, with the helibars probably being the most popular. there are also adjustable replacement top triple clamps.

so if u prefer something real comfy and arent plannin on playing ricky racer, prolyl go for the zzr. otherwise prolyl the 12. the 9 will likely feel a little underpowered 2up, tho there are certainly plenty of people ridin them that way. i wouldnt write off the zxr too fast tho. looks like a nice comfy seat for both rider & pillion, plenty of power, and supposed to handle pretty good. only drawback is the lack of fairing of course, but it's also cheaper.

there are members who own just about all combinations of bikes mentioned and i'm sure some will chime in with first hand experience. swft comes to mind (12 and zzr) but he's on the way to laguna so u may have to wait a couple weeks to get a reply from him.

good luck

jonwright

Needs a job
Posts: 2416

posted July 06, 2003 08:33 PM

An older magazine article had reviewed both bikes (ZZR and 12R).

Actually, they gave the ZZR good marks for handling.

12R SUCKS for pillion comfort. A long legged passenger will have her knees in your armpits. Not comfortable for her nor you. Short trips every once in a while isn't too bad. Plus the fact that hard panniers are tough to find.

Sounds to me like what you need is the ZZ-R.

Here's the article comparing the ZZ-R and the Blackbird:

=========

Honda CBR1100XX vs. Kawasaki ZZ-R1200

Break out the Good Silverware
By Elliot "Stickie" Strong

Torrance, California, September 29, 2002 -- Advertisement

These two lovelies were both cutting-edge big bikes built for the top-speed battles of the mid-1990s, until a bike named after a falcon called the Hayabusa came along and changed motorcycle history like only a small percentage of models ever do. It effectively relegated bikes like the venerable Blackbird and the ZX-11 (aka ZZ-R1100 in Europe) to second-tier status and opened up the market for other wacky shenanigans from Nippon, like the ZX-12R and the GSX-R1000. One of the side effects of all this activity was an unofficial high-speed moratorium put into effect in 2000 with a lid of 300kph/186mph rumored to be the "gentlemen's agreement" among the major bike manufacturers (much like the 155mph top speed limit agreed upon by most European car makers).

But I digress: For what purpose do dinosaurs like the Dos Equis and the Zee-Zee-R exist, with monsters like the Hayabusa and ZX-12R stomping around? These bikes have become de facto sport-touring bikes, or Grand Touring (GT) bikes. Honda's continuing refinement of the venerable CBR1100XX and Kawasaki's further shift towards the sport-touring sector with the redesign of the ZX-11 into the ZZ-R1200 reflects this. The Honda is a smooth, sophisticated bike that screams refinement. Its styling is still sharp, and combined with its smart silver paint scheme, it gathers many compliments and admiring glances. The dash is a myriad of digital readouts and the engine is as smooth as "I Can't Believe it's Not Butter."

Compared to the Honda, the new ZZ-R seems unrefined and a bit industrial at first glance--not surprising, as it's built by a corporation that also builds bridges and commercial gas turbines. Analog gauges stare at you as if from an old fighter plane's cockpit, the engine is guttural and buzzy, and the styling is still open to debate. But things start to make sense after you spend some time on the bike and you notice details that Honda failed to address even in their years of refinement. Things like a handy little U-lock storage space, an easy-to-reach rear preload adjuster and front preload that is adjustable in the first place, start making me wonder why the XX is 500 clams more?

Well, probably for things like a counterbalanced engine, fuel injection, the entertaining digital dash and the linked braking system--all of which I am content to live without. Not that I'm a technology-hating Luddite--far from it, and in fact, I consider myself much more of a technophile. Sure the big Kawasaki is a little buzzy, but as long as you keep the revs above 5000 rpm on the freeway and don't lug it down, you'll avoid the onset of hand-tingling numbness. (To accomplish this means either cruising above 90mph or dropping down a gear; I'll leave the choice up to you.)

The Honda's engine, on the other hand, is smooth everywhere, with lots-o-power at your fingertips. The fuel injection of the XX also carries certain advantages, such as quick startup and rapid warm-up time, but we prefer the carbureted power delivery characteristics of the ZZ-R. It's not as snatchy as the Honda, and overall a little more natural and fluid feeling. When news of this bike's release came out, the dreaded phrase "tuned for midrange performance" was part of the propaganda, but as it turns out this engine still feels fairly peaky for a 1200--with a whole lotta mojo everywhere on the tachometer's diabolically orange glowing face. The only downside is that it can trick you into how potent it really is and how fast you really are going on the open road. It really doesn't want to cruise below 90-- nice for covering ground, but potentially not so great for the 'ol driving record.

Much like the Honda's FI compared to the Kawasaki's rack of carbs, the digital vs. analog theme continues between these two bikes. The dash of the Honda is well-designed and informative, but also a bit cluttered and distracting. The Kawasaki's old school analog pieces provide every bit of pertinent information you need instantly and easily, even if the numbers on the speedo are a bit crowded. As much as "digital" has become the magical buzzword of our era, analog is still not a bad word as long as it's in the right context.

One item we could live without on the Honda's parts list (and something that we'd gladly trade for front preload adjustability and easy rear suspension adjustment) is the Linked Brake System. It's a normal journo gripe which we tried to avoid but can't. Around town the system is fairly transparent and not very noticeable, but get it in a backroad environment and it can be unsettling for riders who like to settle the front or rear independently going into corners, which would be nearly all of us. The Kawasaki's brakes aren't really fantastic or anything, but they do their job predictably and reliably, and in general make you wonder why Honda goes to all the trouble? Honda's ABS is fantastic on models that have it, but LBS? It's tough to figure out the motivation at the end of the day.

Speaking of things like corners and backroads, the opinions formulated after taking these bikes through a variety of conditions were surprising. The Double X is quite nice around town; calm, composed, and with a smaller feel than the Kawasaki it's easier to ride, but that's not what these bikes are built for. Sure, they go hellaciously fast: Unsanctioned blasts on overhead carpool lanes and across the desert confirmed something that we all know to be true (*cough* 175 indicated, cough cough!). When it gets to bikes this fast, it's splitting hairs to try and compare which one's faster (170mph vs. 175, how fast do you need to get to that dentist appointment?). That said, the Kawasaki's monstrously powerful and torquey engine easily pulls away from the Honda at supra-triple-digit speeds. In the midrange, too, the ZZ-R lunges ahead from 5000 rpm while the Honda sort of eases into its harness.

So what happens when it comes time for the straightline fun to end and make that inevitable bend in the road? On the first such backroad outing I was on the Zed, behind Speedy McSpeed Calvin on the EcksEcks and thought, Oh just you wait, I'll catch up with you when I get on the Honda! Hah hah hah hahhhh... but to my shock and dismay, after we switched bikes I found myself dropping even further behind than normal and pining away for the rough and tumble Kawasaki.

This was the complete opposite of what we'd expected; after riding the bikes on short trips around LA I thought for sure the Blackbird (Silverbird?) would spank the ZZ-R in the backroads and twisty bits. It sure feels smaller and more sportbike-ish: lighter, narrower, a forward seating position, more weight on the wrists, and narrow handlebars. But the Kawasaki is a big surprise once you get it on what you would expect to be the Honda's turf. Its girth and weight seem to disappear and it's actually a lot of fun to ride at a sporting pace. Its growling intake makes you want to open the throttle for more visceral reasons than just an onrush of stupid amounts of power and torque. Think of a late model V8 Camaro or Trans Am. The Honda's more like an Acura Integra.

ZZ-R handling is predictable and instills complete trust in its abilities, but it's still surprisingly quick and light. Some of us found ourselves getting into far more "oh-shit" situations on the Honda; things like rippled pavement illustrate the differences. Mr. Honda bounces and complains, but Mr. Kawasaki just seems to jump over it all and laugh in the process. It takes a lot to faze this big machine.

Another plus is that its hugeness is a definite advantage on long trips. The Kawasaki's bulbous fairing provides great wind protection for gangly frames, and was incredibly comfortable during a nonstop run across the desert to Las Vegas for an overnight jaunt to see the "Art of the Motorcycle" exhibit. The wide seat spreads out your weight evenly, and makes even butts with not much padding feel perfectly comfy. Compared to the CBR, it's a rolling La-Z-Boy. Overall, the ZZ-R's like that well-worn Barcalounger in front of your grandpa's TV, and the CBR's more like a firm executive chair. It's relatively plush as far as sportbikes go, but after an extended exploration voyage up the coast on a Sunday afternoon, I was ready to be done. My butt, wrists and neck had enough by the time I'd put in over six hours on the Honda. The compactness that makes it feel better in the city doesn't provide as much wind protection at elevated intercity speeds, the forward and compact ergoes weren't so kind on my freakishly long extremities, and the narrower and firmer seat wasn't as nice either.

One drawback of all the horsepower these bikes develop is the production of a lot of waste heat that has to be dumped, and the Honda in particular seems to put off a lot. Riding it around in 90-degree-plus weather with full gear is not a pleasant experience if traffic gums up at all, and in L.A. it always does. As for traffic, lane splitting on either of these bikes is a snap, as they do have a certain presence on the asphalt.

And interestingly enough, I had the opportunity to both be a passenger on the CBR1100XX with JohnnyB at the helm and to carry one for a little while myself. It's actually pretty nice back there, and my relatively inexperienced passenger felt quite secure. However, from the pilot's perspective, I didn't like how the passenger upset the balance of the machine. (Unlike every other Honda designed to carry a passenger, for some inexplicable reason this one makes rear preload adjustment a knuckle-busting affair.)

They're both excellent bikes and fantastic all-around machines, particularly if you have a long commute or live in Montana, where they can take a deep breath, stretch their legs and gallop up to an easy one-thirty for a while. If we've got to pick one, though, it's the ZZ-R1200. It's big, fast and fun to ride. Cool noises waft upward from its mechanical guts, it goes like greased stink, and the engineers really paid attention to all the little details that matter. Nice bike

Scooter

Zone Head
Posts: 899

posted July 06, 2003 09:58 PM

Don't underestimate the handling of a ZRX. I actually feel more comfortable on my ZRX11 in the twisties than my ZX12.

FWIW it sounds like you want the ZZR. I came soooo close to selling both(ZRX/ZX) and getting one. Just wasn't worth the loss. (And I really luv my ZRX)
____________
"Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional."

tuusinii

Pro
Posts: 1031

posted July 07, 2003 03:46 AM

Having ridden both of them: zx for 30k miles and ZZR1200 for couple hundred and its precessor zx11 for many thousands. I'd say You're better of with zzR1200. It's really much comfortable and especially if You plan to ride with companion - the ZZR is really Your choice. It really isn't much slower in the tight stuff - it may fell little slower but abord zzr You don't notice the speed so hard. It differencies in the handling are mostly in that last 5%... And the ZZR:s fairing is very good: I didn't had any trouble riding at 200KPH(=125MPH) straigt up!!! In ZX12 I usually get down at last in 180KPH(=112MPH).

VincentHill

Needs a life
Posts: 6520

posted July 07, 2003 01:46 PM

Freek said it best! In my case, I picked the exact bike I wanted and then made it work! Simple bars on the side move the rear Passenger feet 4 inches forward and 2 inches lower! Wearing out Corbin you can get them to make a very nice rear seat from your stock base plate. Using a ZX11 Sport back rest, and a Renntech Grab rail, you can make a Back rest that has real comfort and when by yourself folds out of the way and looks OK! Now that SPencer does not sell them any more, get a tripple clamp from Schnitz which raises the bars 1.5 inches. A little taller shield and you have the fastest and comfortable sport tourer around and your lady will love you! Total cost under $1,000
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!

swft

Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION

posted July 07, 2003 03:02 PM

quote:
Hi. I am currently a zr7s owner. I am ready to move up for a bike with more power and great handling. Money is not a concern because I have narrowed my choices down to 3 bikes. I have a few questions though. I like to ride fast and take the turns hard. My zr7s obviously isnt designed for this, so I have been looking at a zzr1200 because the ZRX1200 doesnt look like it can handle like sportbike, and the fairing on it is a bit small. The zzr1200 is powerful enough, but it is heavy (520lbs. dry). I am also heavy, at 250lbs, and my wife likes to ride with me. My zr7s has a max load of 380lbs. and it will run 100mph with us both on it easy. Do you think the zzr1200 with its extra weight will handle us and still perform in the curves well?

Nice that you are thinking of the wife while making your decision! As an owner of two ZX12Rs and a ZZR1200, I've posted some reviews and opinions on this, and the ZZR1200.net board. Let me share my thoughts:

The ZX12R was designed as a Hyper-sportbike. Capable of delivering sportbike manners with a hammerblow of power and top speed. The pillion was an absolutely minimal consideration, and it shows. You won't find very many riders with a passenger, at least not a comfortable one.

The ZZR was designed and built for Europe. Two adult europeans, who wanted to take the curves at speed, but didn't want to sacrifice their comfort in doing so.

Some interesting things to look at are the differences between the two:

Rake and trail:

ZX12R
Bore x Stroke: 83.0 x 55.4mm - Big bore, short stroke. Great for top end power, but bottom end just isn't there. Off the line, several bikes, the ZZR included, will dust ya. You'll gobble him up shortly, but I wouldn't go stoplight to stoplight with one.

Rake/trail: 23.5 degrees/3.7 in.
The ZX12R has a sharper steering angle than the ZZR. Turns quicker. I can attest to this. On the other hand, that big ole' honking 200 tire out back really slows things down. Stock against stock, I'd give the nod to the ZX12R for quickness, and the ZZR for straightline stability.

Wheelbase: 56.7 in. - Long for a sportbike. ZX12R - goes like a bullet, turns like a ... bullet.

ZZR1200
Bore x Stroke: 79.0 x 59.4mm - There's where the grunt comes from. 4mm smaller bore, 4mm longer stroke. This is what lets the ZZR just absolutely muscle up to speed from parking lot speed.

Rake/trail: 25 degrees/4.1 in. - Not exactly what I would call 'lazy' steering, but it is kicked out a bit compared to the 12. However, once past a walking pace, the steering is pretty light. The stock 180 tire helps keep the bike feeling nimble, and when you've picked your line, the bike stays on it like it was on rails.

Wheelbase: 59.3 in. - Yeah baby! I like it long like that!

Great for long sweepers and such, the bike really doesn't feel it's weight unless you are down to walking pace through the corners. A trick I've found it to let it fall into the corner, then gas it and stand it back up for the next one.

quote:
I would love the get the zx12. It is cheaper at the dealership than the zzr1200. I just dont know if the zx12 is good for carrying a passenger with my weight on it. (does anyone know the zx12 max load capacity). Has anyone taken it hard through the twisties with a passenger?
Also, can bar risers be added to make it more like the zzr1200 with less wrist pressure? The zx12 is a lighter bike than the zzr1200 so do you think a lighter bike will perform better with heavier loads on it? Or is it a heavier bike that can take heavier passenger? ???

The ZX12R is not an ideal passenger platform. Although noone has experienced subframe failures, other sportbikes have. That's a difference that isn't listed anywhere is the fact that the ZZR has a steel subframe. Obviously, it was designed for two up, while the ZX12R was maybe intended for occassional usage.

There are two solutions for the ZZR1200 right now. The HeliBars, which raise the bars and bring them back up to six inches. And the Genmar risers, which raise the bars about 1.5 inches. The Genmars are a 15 minute install, the Helibars take much longer.

It's all about the suspension. The ZX12R's stock springs are .85kg/mm, which is inadequate for a heavier riders. .95 or 1.0 are much better for someone your weight.

The ZZRs are .95 kg/mm out of the box. I haven't needed to crank up the rebound like I did on my 12, before I had the shocks resprung. Also, it's a pain to adjust the preload on the stock shock on the 12. The ZZR has an easily accessible preload adjuster on the right side of the bike.

quote:
The other bike I am considering is the zx9. It seems to be even lighter and it has the reputation of being a better street/road bike than a track bike. I am okay with that provided it will handle the turns with my passenger and me better than my zr7. Don't laugh.!! hehe. I have read the reviews on the zx9 and I am beginning to think it gets bad track reviews more because the reviewers are hardcore track riders. Waaay more than I am. I saw a video comparing the zx12 and the hayabusa in the UK. The zx12 was right there with it at all times. - Yet, it is a common misconcepcion that the hayabusa way outdoes the zx12. With that in mind, I believe the zx9 is probably more bike than I can imagine and I would be thrilled with its speed and handling even with a passenger.

Take a look at that pillion seat. In fact, have her sit on it before you decide. I think you'd be sacrificing a lot in passenger comfort.

quote:
I like the zzr1200 most, but fear I would be buying a touring bike and would be disappointed at its handling because of its weight...I cant trust zzr1200 owners' website forums because they are fans of their bikes.

You'll have to ask some of the folks I've ridden with whether or not it's a 'touring bike'. The weight is there, but it's manageable. Some places, like windswept coastlines (CA) the weight and longer wheelbase help keep the bike stable through the gusts, while the lighter, shorter wheelbase sportbikes around you are weaving all over the road.

quote:
The zx12 comes in second, if you owners think it would carry a passenger well.

I don't think your passenger is going to be real happy on the back of the ZX12R. She will be sitting on a tiny seat, way up in the air, without a lot to hang on to. She's got no grab rails, so it's just you and your body hair for her!

quote:
The zx9 is last because I dont know enough about it.

Same here. Don't know a lot of people riding one. I know it's a good one up bike for sport touring, but don't think many people are using it for two up.

quote:
Can anyone help me with some insight about the zx12???
It is being sold brand new here in vegas for $8400. Will a heavy guy with a wife be happy on it???

I'd recommend the ZZR.

quote:
thankx - sorry so long.

tozzi

Parking Attendant
Posts: 4

posted July 07, 2003 09:30 PM

swft.

Man. Thanks a lot for such helpful information! Thanks everyone. I am feeling closer to the zzr than ever. I have decided the VFR 800 that the dealer dragged me to today, hasn't got enough torque. But man is it sweet looking...and comfortable! - I want to blow people away and the zzr12 is more capable of that. I just hope I dont hit the curves so much faster since it is a 1200 - that it handles like my zr7 does when I lean it hard. wallow.

I guess I'm being cautious about this next bike purchase because I feel disappointed by the zr7's lack of torque/power and handling...but I bought it because it was a comfortable riding position. It was my first bike, and I believe it was the right choice for that. - But now I am looking to keep the next bike for a long time. I just dont want to make a mistake that will remind me of the zr7.

All this came from some guy letting me ride his '97 zx-1100 last week. I was so blown away by its power and handling versus my bike, plus I was shocked that the riding position wasnt soooo bad being leaned over - that I got the fever for a kick ass bike. I dont want some goldwing type bike - just because I am including my pillion in the decision, I dont want some pillion oriented bike...don't get me wrong. I think I am just overstating my concern that this next bike not be bogged down like my zr7 was with a rider on back. I have probably made too much of it.

You all are so patient and so helpful, I am soooooo close to getting this zzr1200...I will soon be a burden no longer. Maybe I will pay back this forum with advice and stories of my own zzr1200 to help some confused paranoid high revving - under torqued middleweight rider like myself.

swft

Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION

posted July 09, 2003 05:21 AM

Here's a good story (that's true). Was kinda 'babysitting' yesterday, and had a friend's 19 year old son on the back of the big Zed. We were coming back from Stinson Beach Highway (CA 1), which is a twisty nasty dilapidated piece of road if there ever was one. Decided to take another look at Mines Road, off of I5, so took the right at the 205/580 cut. Had about 215 miles on the tank at that point, and decided to put it on reserve and start looking for a gas station. Tooling along the the left lane at about 95mph, slide up along side this big S600 in the right lane. He looks over, grins and punches it. The big Benz moves out right quickly for it's size, but I counter with a quick tap on the shifter twice, and absolutely demolish the Benz! He had about three lengths on me until I rolled it on in fourth, then I went by him like a silver missile, rider and passenger crouched down. Took the bike up past 150 (160'ish on the speedo) and had an easy mile on him before he knew what happened. Slowed for the turnoff onto Mines Road, and he caught back up and waved, giving me the thumbs up. I waved back, all in good fun.

Tanked up, looked at the time, and decided we were going to have to skip a trip up to Lick Observatory. Poked along (at about 90) back towards the house. Today it's south down 5 to Laguna. I've already ridden down 1 to Monterey last October, so mostly just want to get in and settled at the room.

swft

Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION

posted July 09, 2003 05:25 AM

Total weight of passenger and rider was about 400 lbs, btw.

ScaredyCat