redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted June 02, 2003 05:59 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 2 Jun 2003 22:34
A post that Easyrider would love to delete if it were on his site
Not being a regular visitor to Dale's site, I don't get a chance to read the majority of commentary by it's members or it's administrator.
Now, the others have "let bygones be bygones" between them and Dale. Since I also felt this way, I had no further problems with Dale or his site. That was until today.
On May 30th, I received the following e-mail from Dale:
I am finally in need of more ZX-12R.org stickers. I realize that due to whatever happened on the websites that you will not be interesteed in making more for me and that is fine, I appreciated the first order very much.
However I would like to request the original digital artwork that you used to create the stickers so I can pass it on to a local vendor. The scanned in image that I have and use for my graphic is not a high enough resolution to reproduce quality stickers.
You did a great job on the graphic.
Please let me know either way as soon as you can find the time. I would like to make up more stickers for the ZX-12R.org Black Hills Rally.
Thanks again,
Dale
On the same day, I sent him this reply:
Dale,
Though our opinions over the issues of republication and the grounds of thread removal might differ, I hold no ill will towards you personally. I mean that in the most sincere and heartfelt way. As for any past (or future) issues you might engage in with others, that's between the you and them.
One thing is for sure and that is that I do NOT let "personal issues" interfere with professional ones. You in no way qualify for my "hate to do business with". That's because I don't have one. That would be equal to a "hate to eat" or "hate to buy stuff for my bike" list. Since my business's ability to pay my salary is in part, that I do not have such a "list" as the first mentioned, I don't have to worry about the other two.
I enjoyed providing the first batch of decals for you and would be more then willing to do them again. On the other hand, I can also appreciate one wishing to support local vendors and actually encourage potential clients to do so when ever economically possible. In other words, if you can get them quicker or at a similar or even cheaper price, I encourage them to do so. This can especially pay off when you need a product that I can not provide and they can. Still, this does not diminish my desire to do the job for you.
I dug up some of the e-mails pertaining to the original order. The original quote went like this:
We can produce 750 of the smaller decals and 250 of the larger decals for a total cost of (drum roll please)
$282.50 + shipping (estimated to be less that $10)
That works out to $0.56 each for the 250 2" x 12" decals and $0.19 each for the 750 3/4" x 4" decals. To reduce the overall quantity (i.e. 125 large & 375 small) would have very little affect on the total price. The costs of ink, material and labor would not be that different, but your cost per unit would just about double.
Retail cost, two years later, would be $334.30 USD. Advertising Agency Discount would be $303.75 USD. Sorry, there's no "ass kissing because I fucked up discount" this time. Unless of course, I fuck up again. You'd pay the "Agency" price ($303.75 - an increase of $21.25 since March 2001).. The quote do not include shipping.
(NOTE - because I felt that the quality of the original run of decals was not up to my standards, I had the order reproduced and sent him both runs. That was of 1500 of the small decals and 500 of the large decals)
After begging for a serious and honest critic of the product, you sent me this:
Well I did spot some imperfections with the Blue being off center from the black on just a few digits "the 1 and O". If I really want to be picky I could say that on some you can see a jagged line on the curves (the black lines) instead of a smooth line. Some of the black did not come out on the inside of the center of the "R"s.
However this is all under bright light and close up. It looks like the majority of these imperfections were on the first run. And they seem to be more prevalent in the smaller ones. The larger ones seem smoother. However I can see how smaller imperfections would seem less obvious on the larger stickers due to the lower ratio of impact. Where the same size imperfection (registration tolerances) would seem more pronounced on the smaller ones due to the smaller ratio.
Customer satisfaction 100% I think they look great. Thank you again very much, I really appreciate it.
Dale
Though you might have been satisfied 100%, I was not. We have made many improvements over the past two years, but art with small straight and angled rules still prove to be a challenge. Between the outputting of the actual positives to the direction of the mesh in the screen, producing such a design as yours does require the folks in production to PAY ATTENTION. I believe they can do that now.
Though I can not reproduce your decals for anyone else, technically you do not own the actual positives or digital artwork that the positives are produced from. Even when "art charges" are applied to the production of a job, these charges apply to the actual labor costs involved in producing the art and do not apply to the physical positives or the digital file used in their creation. I know it's a fucked up policy, but that is the industry norm.
All the same, I can understand if you do not feel comfortable in reordering the decals from me and would prefer to have a local vendor produce them for you. This is where it does get "personal". Though I will be the first one to get into your face over "web forum issues", I also still consider you to be not only a fellow 12R owner, but more importantly... a friend as well.
Thus, enclosed is an Adobe Illustrator EPS file (65847.eps - the number is actually the work order number used for your previous order) of the artwork used to produce your decals. I have saved it in the oldest version I could ( Adobe Illustrator v3.0/3.2), so it should be readable by just about any graphics program.
Again, I'd be more than happy to do the reorder for you If you have any questions or need the file in a different format, just let me know.
Sherman
I do not have any problems with him getting his decals somewhere else. That's the nature of business. Though I am in no way obligated, either professionally (he did not pay any kind of "art charge") or personally, to give him the artwork, I chose to do so in a sign of friendship and proof that I have gone past previous disagreements. I have always been up front and honest on this as I try to be on everything else. Including my posts here and at other forums. I seems that this "ethical viewpoint" does not necessarily apply to Dale. This viewpoint was solidified after reading his comments about me and my work on his site.
This was posted on his site, just prior to my receiving his e-mail.
12Rpilot
I can't remember the details but I think Redelk has the logos in a format that can be blown up to any size without getting pixilated. It's a format that the graphix industry uses, I think. You might give him a shout.
easyrider
Site Admin
I will email him that is a great suggestion, however his cooperation may be limited due to his allegiance to Bikeland.
MY, MY! Not having even bothered to speak with me about it, he automatically assumes that my company will not do business with him because of "non-business" issues that were over 1 1/2 years ago. Okay. I'll chalk that up to just plain ignorance.
Later that same day, after receiving my e-mail, he posts:
I just received the artwork from Redelk so I am much further along now.
However it still has some jagged lines that I would like to clean up if possible. If there is anyone that does graphic design as a profession, I don't mind paying to get a super clean image. I can send people the original Illustrator image if they are interested.
Thank you very much,
Now I don't know how many of you are familiar with the differences between vector and raster art, but in a nutshell, vector art is usually an EPS file that consists "points and curves" (similar to AutoCAD) and raster is made up in pixels (like bitmap files). The advantage of vectored art in my industry is that it can be enlarged or reduced to any size and it will ALWAYS maintain it's sharpness. It doesn't matter if it's an inch long or a mile.
Dale further posts:
I wanted to improve on the original sticker design. i.e. higher quality vinyl, pre-cut around the edges, peel off on top and bottom for easier application. Along with that, I wanted to clean up the image and get rid of some of the jagged/pixelated lines that have been bugging me. I am a little on the picky side when it come to details.
I have made most of the banner on the site. Some of the advertisers have their own, but I am made most of them. However I have no artistic skill, I just cut and paste and use the various software I have purchased for the site to animate etc. As far as creating original art, I suck.
I think I have found someone that can help out. I will let you know soon.
Thanks for the offer,
Easyrider
I can possible understand "jagged" edges present on the decals, but to say that the artwork itself is "jagged" does not only show his ignorance concerning EPS art, but is insulting to me as a screen printer. His personal incompetence in being able to view vector graphic art is no reason to slam me (indirectly or otherwise) just because he sees jagged edges on his monitor's screen. If he were capable of outputting it directly to film at 1200 dpi, like we do here, I'd pay him good money to show me a single jagged edge. I'll even let him borrow my Agfa 10X lupe.
I have no problem with someone publicly saying derogatory things about me personally on the forums, but when you start to falsely misrepresent or even openly imply negative things about my company or the work we do, all with no basis in any fact, I then have a SERIOUS problem. It makes me wonder how many of the "bad batch" did he go ahead and send or sell to unsuspecting forum members. Since I sent both runs to him in March '01 and he's just now running out, I'd think I would be safely assuming that it was more then one or two decals from the "bad batch".
Here is a link to the thread I am referring to on Easyrider's ZX-12R.org (how's that for "crediting the source", Dale?):
http://www.zx-12r.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15722
Others might be able to "let go of the past", but from where I'm sitting, there's nothing "past" about Dale's cavalier and ignorant attitude towards others that don't kiss his ass! Hell, when I tried to even post on his forum and my password was no longer valid. When I clicked on "Forget your password", it said my e-mail address was invalid for that user name. So fuck him! My life is too short to have to deal with such "turds in a punchbowl" as Dale.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
   
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ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
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posted June 02, 2003 06:21 PM
Sounds like a genuine "Fuck You" is in order for him. Life is consistant with our business's. Seems like it is always the guy or company you cut a discount and or cut a break that wants the most from you and usually finishes the relationship with criticism about the very things you did for free or as a favor. And even with the wisdom that comes with geting older I still find myself giving someone a deal or merely helping them out and having it bite me in the ass!
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted June 02, 2003 07:20 PM
sounds like classic dale to me.
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted June 02, 2003 07:45 PM
Fuck the fuckin' fucker.
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phingersniffer
Expert Class
Posts: 293
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posted June 02, 2003 09:02 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 3 Jun 2003 22:34
Fuck Dale. Shithead.
He doesn't have a fucking clue about digital ownership. You can tell by his site. I would of never given him the file. He's Like this fuck we had working for us who thought that if he drew a detail a work (cad) that he had the right to use it on his own. People don't appreciate the person who actually paid to digitally produce something.
But dale has to take it a step further and bitch about somebody doing him a favour? Ingnoramus Dipshit.
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The number one enemy of progress is question.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted June 02, 2003 09:23 PM
I know I was an idiot for giving him the EPS file, but since I'm always wanting to please everybody and give them the benefit of the doubt...
DAMN! I must like getting up the ole poop shoot as much as Bart!
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted June 02, 2003 09:48 PM
quote:
DAMN! I must like getting up the ole poop shoot as much as Bart!
come now redelk (ok, bad choice of words), thats not possible, physically or otherwise 
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted June 02, 2003 10:10 PM
jonwright has been trying to show me how to shrug such stupidity off.
http://www.musicremedy.com/audio/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowAudio&AudioId=106
United States of Whatever
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted June 03, 2003 02:32 AM
Hehe beg Dale to show up at Viol8rs party....we'll digitally reproduce his head in the "pit"...lol
WhatadorkDaleis.
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Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
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posted June 03, 2003 02:32 AM
I'd put him on the " motherfuckers who can suck my dick" club list.!
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted June 03, 2003 04:11 AM
Fuck the Biatch......
Maybe we need to invite him to be a resident in the smackhouse in September. He could shine our riding boots with the crack of his ass.  Sherm email him back and tell him you had just received the news about his condition, and you were sorry to hear that he was suffering from "Zactly". Meaning that his breath smells "Zactly" like his ass. 
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted June 03, 2003 04:31 AM
I don't understand what Dale did to you that was so horrible REDELK. He bought decals from you and as you have said and posted were not what was asked for. I can understand looking elsewhere.
I also don't understand BS from this site being taken over to ZX12R Forum. Or petty differences. I was draged into a encounters with members of your forum because of things said here and they end up on ZX12RForum.
I think you redelk have acted childish in your current thread here and in your recent posts on ZX12Forum.
If you don't like someone why do you post on there website? Calling people stupid and other names will only make things worse.
We all ride a great sportbike. We all love to ride and talk about ZX12 bikes. Why screw that up?
I deal with enough hate and BS comments from Harley riders and people who don't even have bikes.
All this is childish
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted June 03, 2003 04:39 AM
Edited By: Ninjaman12R on 3 Jun 2003 05:40
May I,.........Thank You.........
Outlaw,
While I sympathize with your feminine ways, and almost know you could suck the chrome off a ball hitch, I must tell you to get yourself a 40oz can of of "Leave and Don't Ever Come Back You Bogus Fuck".
There is no way a genuine newbie would make this his first post. Hell you might even be Dale for all I know. You are for sure an obvious supporter if Dale. Either way , whomever you are, you need to recognize.
Feel free to flame back at me as hard as you can. I love it when my bitches are angry.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted June 03, 2003 04:50 AM
I have read your reply and don't feel it would be in the best interest of both sites to flame back at you.
Great ideals were always shuned though history and it takes time to change ones way. I will allow you this pause to reconsider your verbal abuse towards a rider of an 02 PMB 12R, That goes by the handle Outlaw.
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silvrnick
Novice Class
Posts: 72
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posted June 03, 2003 04:53 AM
I just looked at the page you provided and the pict Dale posted and It looks good to me....
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silvrnick
Novice Class
Posts: 72
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posted June 03, 2003 04:55 AM
but then again.... im no genius
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted June 03, 2003 05:06 AM
Outlaw, no worries brother. Ninjaman has daily wild fantasies about men sucking chrome off golf balls. He's funny that way, funny as in queer, not ha ha.
Rick I know Outlaw from reading him on Dale's site. He's cool man.
Outlaw, just stay out this stuff between Dale and Sherm. People are excellent on both sites and any frequent both sites. This shit was a long time ago and only between a couple people.
____________
It's a free country brother
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted June 03, 2003 05:09 AM
Do what????
Outlaw you're not making this very fun. Get mad, or else!!!!!!!!!!!
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted June 03, 2003 05:16 AM
Hey Otis.........
Smile where I fucked you last!!! You gimped up fucker, are you telling me your vouching for this "Outlaw" fag???  Well, if so, I guess he's alright. Still a little confused considering it's a Michigan biatch saying that someone is ok. But I guess I'll give you both the benefit of the doubt.
Take heed Outlaw, do as Otis says and stay outta the beef with Dale and redelk. No good can come from it. I just jumped in because I saw an opportunity to smoke some folks. Unfortunately you were one of them. Let that be a lesson to ya...........
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted June 03, 2003 05:16 AM
Thanks Otis
I believe ZX12RZone and ZX12RForum can do great things great things together.
I come in peace.
And will stay out of conflict.
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Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted June 03, 2003 06:01 AM
Edited By: Otis on 3 Jun 2003 07:02
Stay out of conflict except to smoke one pice of shit homo redneck run over dogs chew tabacco houseshoe wearing BIIAAATCHHH!! ie: Ninjaman. You see Outlaw, Rick loves it harsh. When Harry's feeding him the tubesteak he wants Bart to beat him with a cane. The more rude and crude you are, the more he gots off on it. Ain't that right biatch???
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It's a free country brother
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted June 03, 2003 06:16 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 3 Jun 2003 07:20
...uh...guys...Outhouse...er...I mean Outlaw IS NOT what he makes himself out to be...he's a 'tough guy'...I should know...he disagreed with what I once had to say at Dale's site and got so pissed that he had the audacity(sp?) to send me a private e-mail and tell me that I was the type of cop that he decked out with one punch...and I think he meant it, too....it frightened me and I had nightmares for weeks!....yeah riiiiiiiiight...as if I don't get into enough real tense moments already every freekin' week... 
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted June 03, 2003 06:19 AM
I have no knowledge of any of that stuff worm.
____________
It's a free country brother
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted June 03, 2003 06:24 AM
I'm LMAO,
Thanks for the compliment Wormhole. Toughguy
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted June 03, 2003 06:33 AM
quote:
I have no knowledge of any of that stuff worm.
...most don't...but a few do...I still have 'the e-mail' somewhere (I think)...we all have disagreements, but I have never, ever been told anything like (that) by anyone on any of the boards I frequent by someone I don't know and who doesn't know me...and all about something neither one of us had any control over, just opinions...he's full-o-shit as far as I'm concerned...
...HEY OUTHOUSE!!! YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!!! AS AN OUTHOUSE SHOULD BE!!!
...but I'm not holdin' any grudges
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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