fish_antlers
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posted November 30, 2001 02:06 PM
Could Kawi/Muzzy have held off Ducati's world dominance?
for Rob....
... so what sort of effect did the American "absorbtion" of Ducati have timed with Kawi's move away from Muzzy?
... I understand that Kawi and Muzzy held off Ducati for a while... all I am suggesting is that monetary factors with the Ducati buyout, coupled with the "loss" of Chandler & Muzzy for Kawi and the rise to dominance of Fogarty and Ducati were all contributing factors to Kawi's "downturn" in standings......
.... certainly, although we cannot turn back the clock... I would have a difficult time believing that even had Kawi remained with Muzzy could they/you have held off Ducati...
Just having a little debate here (former Ducati owner  )
   
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redelk
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posted November 30, 2001 02:46 PM
Also... what about the 7R?
I'll understand if you can't discuss this aspect, due to your current affiliation with KHI/KMC.
From what I understand, KHI had a completely redesigned 7R due to come out in '00. It supposedly was a "GSXR 750 beater" with FI and massive amounts of weight trimmed off. Rumor had it that it a pre-production model was brought to the US for a closed photo shoot at Willow Springs. The pics were taken for future sales brochures, the bike was shipped back to the factory... and no another word was spoken about it. It just disappeared off the face of the earth.
Now, 2 model years later, were still stuck with a 750 that's almost 70 pounds heavier the the GSXR and hasn't had a SINGLE improvement or change since the P series was introduced in '96. Not a titanium header or canister, no magnesium covers... nothing. I understand the aspects of the turmoil in the racing world concerning the 750 class, but if the design had made it to the pre-production stage, Why hasn't KHI gone ahead and introduce it? Isn't SEVEN YEARS a tad much for a for a sportbike design (a retorical question that needs no answer)?
I'd think that KHI would have either gone the route of Honda and Yamaha (the R& doesn't count) and dropped the 750 or proceeded with the new version. It appears that the R&D had already been done and the Gixxer 750 isn't much different then when it was introduced (excluding the FI improvements), so additiona R&D would really be that necessary. Are they going to let it die or or they going to continue insult us with this excuse of a 750?
I understand that the bike used in racing does not have a whole lot in common with what's on the showroom floor, but it still is basically the same outdated chassis design. How does KHI expect to be competitive with a race bike based on 7 year old technology? Don't they relize that it's Chandler and Bostrom that have even keep the bike competitive and not because it's such a great bike design?
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ZXtra
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posted November 30, 2001 03:19 PM
I honestly believe that when Kawasaki saw the '00 GSXR750, they decided that their 750 wouldn't be the world beater that they wanted it to be and therefore wouldn't sell in the numbers required to justify tooling up a production line.
Kawasaki is the smallest of the "big 4" and so they sunk money into the 600's (good sellers) and thankfully our own ZX12.
That said, it wouldn't be hard or expensive for them to design 1 lightweight part a year to trim weight (eg. wheels, exhaust, frame, suspension, body work).
The trend now is to build lightweight motors. That would be expensive, but some improvements would be cheap.
 -ZXtra
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RobMuzzy
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posted November 30, 2001 06:10 PM
Fish, My original comments were in response to suggestions that Kawasaki WSB Team used Akropovic exhaust because they were better. I merely sited the facts from the four years that Kawasaki WSB bikes used Muzzy exhaust to the five years that they have used Akropovic exhaust. You are suggesting that Kawasaki has not won due to the tough level of competition. You may be absolutely correct. We may have won all those races because it was much easier then. I prefer to believe it was the dedication and hard work of our team members and Scott Russell. This is my last post on this subject.
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fish_antlers
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posted November 30, 2001 06:16 PM
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redelk
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posted November 30, 2001 06:29 PM
'nuff said, eh?
I can accept that... reluctantly.
Now I'm sure if we have any questions or comments about Muzzy products, he'd be a tad more willing to discuss that... wouldn't ya think, fish?
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fish_antlers
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posted November 30, 2001 06:34 PM
I was thinking more of general motorcycle racing BS.... that's all..
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silver01bullit
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posted November 30, 2001 07:03 PM
I'm hoping that Kawi has something up their sleeves VERY soon. It would be foolish to put all their eggs in one basket and concentrate solely on the 12 which they're obviously going to sell far fewer of then the 6R's, 7R's, and 9R's. Joe Blow doesn't usually have brand loyalty when it comes time to go bike shopping and will obviously choose the 365 lb Gixxer over the 404 lb 7R. Surely Kawi can't be blind to this fact and either plans on either selling out to Suzi or coming out with a revamped killer line up. Perhaps this is why they haven't punched out the 9R closer to 1000 cc to compete with the Gixxer 1k. Perhaps it's cause the 10R may blow it away, who knows. But I'd hate to think that KHI is taking an ass whoopin' layin' down. If they are, I'm gonna run out and get a Gixxer 1K for a second bike. The 12 will always be the first ride.
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jimp
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posted November 30, 2001 07:31 PM
 Edited By: jimp on 30 Nov 2001 19:32
MONEY
K does not care about kickin ASS as long as the botton line looks good. Just understand the bean counters run the corporation , not the racers.
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Where's my 14 ???
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redelk
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posted November 30, 2001 11:02 PM
That's 448 POUNDS!
I dreamed of having my '97 7R at 404 pounds (dry, of course). I almost wouldn't think that dropping 44 pounds off the 7R was possible! I'm not sure, but isn't that about what Cliff has trimmed off his 12R? How much time and money did it take? Imagine, doing all that to a 7R and STILL be almost FORTY POUNDS HEAVIER the Gixxer. Frustrating, huh? Now image trimming that much off the 12R and still being 40 pounds heavier then a Busa.
As a proud (yet former) owner of a 7R... what KHI is doing (of NOT doing) to my baby, makes me want to puke! It makes me ashamed to tell anyone that I used to own one! Everyone (especially the Gixxer owners) know that there is very little in common between what Chandler & Bostrom rides and what's available in the showroom. Even if we ignore that, they still throw that Mladin crap in our faces.
There is no doubt in my mind that if you put Chandler and Bostrom on equally performing bikes, they'd mop pits with Mladin's ass. Hayden's too. Not to take anything away from Mladin and Hayden, because bore of them are VERY GOOD riders. Still, neither of them are of the same level as Chandler and Bostrom. Even with Chandler closing in on retirement, he's still has more talent, more skill and more fortitude the Mladin and Hayden combined. The only one to come close is Duhamel. Actually, I believe Duhamel is as good as Chandler and Bostrom, but the injuries have taken their toll.
Yeah, Mladin might have won the championship, but look at the following 4 places. Bostrom (-15), Hayden (-40), Chandler (-61) and Duhamel (-80). With the points for the first five positions at one event being, 1st - 36, 2nd - 32, 3rd - 29, 4th - 27 and 5th - 26. An unexpected DNF (are the ever "expected"?), could have really changed things. Now, I'm not cryin' over what could have been. It's just that it is nothing short of amazing what the Kawasaki riders acomplished.
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Iboomalot
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posted December 01, 2001 12:43 AM
ZX-9R IS 392 dry they can make a light zx-7r for sure
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RobMuzzy
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posted December 01, 2001 07:11 AM
Silver, Don't run out and by that gixxer 1k yet. KHI is waking up. Unfortunately the company has been run by a bean counter lately.
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MO
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posted December 01, 2001 07:55 AM
for Mr Muzzy & Meyer what do you think about the kaw suzi merger, do you think its a + or- for kaw fans? also we keep hearing 3,4% kawasaki in bike sales but is it not true that kawasaki is the largest company of the 4 and there bikes are mostly so the big dog kawi guys got somthing to brag about and they also build fighter jets?
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KW
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silver01bullit
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posted December 01, 2001 08:13 AM
Edited By: silver01bullit on 1 Dec 2001 08:17
Mr. Muzzy, no GSX-R1000 for me yet, but I have to admit that I'm getting a little impatient waiting for the 10R so I can add that to my stable!
Redelk,
Sorry, I got the weight confused with that of the 9R, shit even 404 lbs is Jenny Craig bound for a 7R!
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Bigju
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posted December 01, 2001 02:05 PM
Silver, I agree I am growing impatient waiting for a Kow to kick the GSXR1K in the dirt. I'm trying to wait for the 10. Hopefully it will be out soon and Rob can send a Ti header to wy house for it. Is Darryl Woods still working for you guys and Rickey Gadson?
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