psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted July 09, 2010 05:28 AM
quote:
PS. Psycho, is your bike a high compression 1270? Just curious as to your setup.
Very close to 14:1 (1270 13.5:1 w/o bse gasket).
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 09, 2010 05:40 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jul 2010 13:41
quote:
quote:
PS. Psycho, is your bike a high compression 1270? Just curious as to your setup.
Very close to 14:1 (1270 13.5:1 w/o bse gasket).
I just wanted to confirm that. I am speaking primarily about stock motors. With a larger/modified engine such as yours, that adds a few more variables...I'm sure you would agree. 
At any rate, based on the feedback in this thread (and the provided links), I think it is pretty obvious that this pipe has some significant low rpm tuning issues...for most people.
I will admit, they sound great, and make strong peak power though! 
Shane
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shiphteey
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posted July 09, 2010 05:53 AM
You gotta admit Shane, that lopey idle does sound intimidating.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 09, 2010 06:46 AM
quote:
You gotta admit Shane, that lopey idle does sound intimidating.
Ali...Take the baffle out of a muzzy pipe, then you'll really hear an intimidating lopey idle...Then go to a Harley Davidson mcy hangout and ask anyone if they want to DragRace 
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jabbascot
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted July 10, 2010 07:58 AM
thanks guys a few things to mull over thanks again for prompt help
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steve
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 10, 2010 09:50 AM
how bad does it idle? like how many rpms does it hunt up and down. mine is someware like 200 to 300 tops. i herd some do it someware around 1000 rpms. how much does yours do it?
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brendasue555
Expert Class
Posts: 436
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posted July 11, 2010 09:19 AM
What is this hunt thing you speak of? Do bikes with carbs hunt? I think I know what a flat spot is. My zx12 has 6 flat spots kinda......if that is when it feels like someone let off the throttle a tiny bit. It does it in every gear sometimes. It always makes me wanna check my foot position in case it was lightly touching the brake. Anyway what I guess I am saying is that I think the 2000 ZX12 came with flat spots from the factory. Mine is totally stock, no pc, no pipe. Bone stock.
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Brenda
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Shane661
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posted July 11, 2010 09:24 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 11 Jul 2010 17:27
quote:
What is this hunt thing you speak of? Do bikes with carbs hunt? I think I know what a flat spot is. My zx12 has 6 flat spots kinda......if that is when it feels like someone let off the throttle a tiny bit. It does it in every gear sometimes. It always makes me wanna check my foot position in case it was lightly touching the brake. Anyway what I guess I am saying is that I think the 2000 ZX12 came with flat spots from the factory. Mine is totally stock, no pc, no pipe. Bone stock.
It is more localized in rpm/pronounced/different than what you have mentioned, Brenda, in the case of the Muzzy exhaust.
But on another note, it sounds like you might have somewhat of an issue with your bike? Sometimes it can be an injector or misfire, what you are describing.
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Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
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posted July 11, 2010 09:35 AM
If you are running a Commander can`t you just richen up the LOW side of the unit....I do it that way and it takes that lope/hunt away on my bike....Stock motor,Muzzy S.winder,BMC race filters,short stacks....I know it`s not the RIGHT way to fix it but it doesn`t cost anything to diagnose it to see if it works this way....
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 11, 2010 09:36 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 11 Jul 2010 17:38
quote:
If you are running a Commander can`t you just richen up the LOW side of the unit....I do it that way and it takes that lope/hunt away on my bike....Stock motor,Muzzy S.winder,BMC race filters,short stacks....I know it`s not the RIGHT way to fix it but it doesn`t cost anything to diagnose it to see if it works this way....
No, it's not that simple with this pipe. Also, this pipe has a very major flat spot to overcome...typically in the 2500-3000 rpm range. Believe me, if it was as simple as adding a few percent fuel on the bottom, you wouldn't have 10 years of complaints about the pipe's low rpm manners!
Shane
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted July 11, 2010 10:04 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 11 Jul 2010 18:25
It's mostly in the timing.
Brenda,
What you're feeling is called throttle "tip-in". When you make very small throttle movements, especially just off closed throttle, an open loop digital FI (like the 12 has) has trouble with the very precise fuel management needed. This causes those dead spots you feel. You can't tune tip-in on the dyno, it has to be done during some very time consuming riding tests. That's the way the correct map for the Muzzy pipe was built, with a computer on the bike and changes made on the street, not the dyno.
You don't get those dead spots with a CV carb like a stock 11 has because the CV carbs determine instantaneous fuel flow based only the actual airflow across the carb. They sort of "self adjust". On your ZX-11, you don't experience it because the 41mm Flat slide carbs I put on there have several ways to tune it out, including the emulsifier tubes, needles, needle jets, pilot jets, and slide cutaways. All that stuff had to be tuned to match that trick airbox you have.
D.
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Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
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posted July 11, 2010 11:08 AM
quote:
quote:
If you are running a Commander can`t you just richen up the LOW side of the unit....I do it that way and it takes that lope/hunt away on my bike....Stock motor,Muzzy S.winder,BMC race filters,short stacks....I know it`s not the RIGHT way to fix it but it doesn`t cost anything to diagnose it to see if it works this way....
No, it's not that simple with this pipe. Also, this pipe has a very major flat spot to overcome...typically in the 2500-3000 rpm range. Believe me, if it was as simple as adding a few percent fuel on the bottom, you wouldn't have 10 years of complaints about the pipe's low rpm manners!
Shane
I see this is a sore spot with you huh,.....
Sorry.....Maybe the sidewinder doesn`t show it that bad.....But I don`t spend too much time at those rpm`s either...
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Shane661
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posted July 11, 2010 11:26 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 11 Jul 2010 19:30
quote:
I see this is a sore spot with you huh,.....
Sorry.....Maybe the sidewinder doesn`t show it that bad.....But I don`t spend too much time at those rpm`s either...
No sore spot...I'm just presenting the facts.
Obviously there is more to this Muzzy pipe issue than just bumping the fuel a few percent. See Doug's post above. According to him, it is "Mostly in the timing". Good to see that he recognizes that there is a problem trying to simply bolt this pipe on...even with a standard power commander and Muzzy-supplied map.
Shane
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Stuart Racing
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posted July 11, 2010 03:27 PM
I was just going on what the guy was complaining about his bike hunting at idle....My bike idles at about 1200 rpms and to get it to quit loping/hunting I added some fuel and it quit, smoothed out and runs great....Might just be my setup because I don`t have any problems at 2500 rpm`s and above....JMO.....
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brendasue555
Expert Class
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posted July 11, 2010 07:19 PM
Thanks Doug, you always explain things so well.
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Brenda
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aliveagain
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posted July 12, 2010 01:38 AM
I have no issues with my pro pipe and it makes great hp. and I still use it for tootling around at 30-35mph.
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Shane661
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posted July 12, 2010 02:31 AM
quote:
I have no issues with my pro pipe and it makes great hp. and I still use it for tootling around at 30-35mph.
The Pro Pipe is an entirely different design, it is a 4/1...and not a 4/2/1. I have a Pro Pipe on my bike now, and it has no low rpm issues like the standard Muzzy pipe did.
It's ironic that a 4/1 racing pipe is smoother than a 4/2/1 street-oriented pipe from the same manufacturer.
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dougmeyer
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posted July 12, 2010 10:13 AM
This is all very confusing to me. The Pro pipe has a huge hole below 6. Muzzys took great care NOT to recommend the pro-pipe for street use. It was designed without any consideration for low end power.
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Shane661
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posted July 12, 2010 10:59 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 12 Jul 2010 20:03
quote:
This is all very confusing to me. The Pro pipe has a huge hole below 6. Muzzys took great care NOT to recommend the pro-pipe for street use. It was designed without any consideration for low end power.
I can say, with 100% certainty, that the Pro Pipe on my 1287 is much smoother in lower rpm/part throttle operation than the street pipe ever was with the stock motor...no matter what map and/or timing adjustments were used.
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted July 12, 2010 01:31 PM
Well, that's excellent. The combo must be perfect for the pipe.
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Shane661
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posted July 12, 2010 01:38 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 12 Jul 2010 21:40
quote:
Well, that's excellent. The combo must be perfect for the pipe.
I doubt that is the case. I am sure that on a dyno the pipe would exhibit the same characteristics that you mentioned. But in daily riding, for my style of riding, it is smooth. From tuning the pipe with a data logger, I can say that it does have some issues, and is not ideal for the street....but the power is smooth, even if not optimal.
The street pipe always hit me with a hideous flat spot at about 2500 rpm...to the point that I had to warn anyone if they were to ride the bike, because it was like a lightswitch. Similar to what Redrocket described.
Shane
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 12, 2010 03:01 PM
anyone that gets thier ecu hacked i can tell you where it needs fuel and where it has plenty.
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Stuart Racing
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posted July 12, 2010 03:11 PM
quote:
anyone that gets thier ecu hacked i can tell you where it needs fuel and where it has plenty.
Are talking about the Hunt at idle like the original guy is trying to figure out or the 2500 rpm flat spot????
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2000redrocket
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posted July 12, 2010 03:41 PM
Edited By: 2000redrocket on 12 Jul 2010 23:55
no stuart i my self like ship sort of like the hunt but my bike does it about 300 rpms. it is sort of cool sounding to my self and "kids".
i am talking about you pulling out in first sort of easy say not planning on pounding it then giveing it a wrist full of throttle and it takes off then signs off then hits again. that i fixed.
i can drive my bike around in the flat spot and it does well if you just drive through it on your way to the speed limit you will not notice it.if you pull some throttle in it it will feel a tad soft if you pull a lot.but if you pull throttle say at 1700 in 1st it will not care and rip through it.
i hope i am clear enough. before just riding through it easy (on the density map which is rpm vs cm-hg it was pig rich and pulling a little throttle made it worse but pulling a lot made it switch to the A-N map and it went to around 13 to 1 but as it got up higher (loaded sort of hard on the A-N map yet) it went real lean centering around 3000 rpms. some of the lean may be from me taking away the density fuel but hell billie all but got knocked off when it went through it when gene would wack it in first down low.
i was adding a ass load of fuel to the density map and it did not really do anything. when you do that for sure it is in the A-N map and bang i got it. i then had to put some back in the density map by logging and easy cruising around in that area.
there is a lot of benifits to being able to tune with the two maps the bike uses instead of trying to force it to do this or that with only the power commander grid which could be trying to fix a issue with the light load map(density) or the heavy load map (A-N map) depending on what you are doing.
i am going to add 5 deg or so to the 19 to 2600 area and check it out soon.
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Stuart Racing
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posted July 12, 2010 06:07 PM
Yes you explained it perfectly and I understand it....But if my bike has it which I``m sure it has a small bit but I`ve leaned to drive through it I guess...I`am more into drag racing it than putting through a parking lot or low rpm drives I guess.....I have a PC with the lcd screen with several maps for different occasions.about 7 or 8 different maps....Maybe the Muzzy S/W doesn`t show the problem as bad....
Thanks for the reply....
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Life in the Fast Lane..........
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