jabbascot
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted July 07, 2010 07:26 AM
hunting on idle
hi since fitting full muzzy system and pcd 3 my bike hunts at idle i have map for full muzzy and kand n s loaded . checked all hoses etc balanced throttle bodie to no avail any ideas
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steve
  
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 07, 2010 07:29 AM
That is a characteristic of the Muzzy exhaust. The Muzzy is well known to run poorly in the lower rpm range.
There is a "pilot jet" mod to smooth out the lower rpm manners. Do a search here, or on Kawasakiworld. 
Shane
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 07, 2010 12:03 PM
Assuming your bike is a 2000-2002, your bike can be tuned to run with almost zero hunt with the proper map, and the correct map will virtually eliminate the 2500 rpm hesitation (it's in the timing).
Call Dave at Muzzys and tell him what you need. You might need to refer to the map as "Doug's Map". If you can't get it from Muzzys, get back to me and I'll dig it up for you. (Might need to off-load it from my bike.).
The Muzzy pipe, being a 4-2-1 actually has great low end if properly mapped.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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posted July 07, 2010 12:20 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 7 Jul 2010 20:22
quote:
Assuming your bike is a 2000-2002, your bike can be tuned to run with almost zero hunt with the proper map, and the correct map will virtually eliminate the 2500 rpm hesitation (it's in the timing).
Call Dave at Muzzys and tell him what you need. You might need to refer to the map as "Doug's Map". If you can't get it from Muzzys, get back to me and I'll dig it up for you. (Might need to off-load it from my bike.).
The Muzzy pipe, being a 4-2-1 actually has great low end if properly mapped.
Doug
Yes, it works for Doug....but not the other 99% of Muzzy owners. "Virtually" eliminate the 2500 rpm hesitation? There shouldn't be any to begin with!
I somehow doubt that the 2000 map is the same as a 2002......maybe 2000-2001, but not 2002 and up.
Good luck!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted July 08, 2010 05:46 AM
I make two people who run the Muzzy 4-2-1 w/o "hunting".
Along with what Doug said, I also address the Air Screws to smooth the off idle transition.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 08, 2010 06:19 AM
well i sort of like the hunting. by bike only does it say by 200 rpms . that hesitation when you pull out i fixed by adding fuel to the a-n map.for me it seemed around 2900. the hesitation was bad enough my bro forgot about it and his wife was almost edjected.
maybe get the ecu hacked and i can show you where to add or take away fuel.
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted July 08, 2010 06:44 AM
I have the Muzzy on my 02 and did experience the hunt @ idle,I don't have a Power Commander on the bike but I tried the Muzzy adjustable advance rotor with 3 degrees of advance and it made a huge improvement in the way the bike ran and idled, DM is on the money saying it's in the timing. Timing affects fueling so check out the map he recommends.
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Orient Express Top Street Bike Winner 8-4-07
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 08, 2010 07:54 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jul 2010 16:31
quote:
I make two people who run the Muzzy 4-2-1 w/o "hunting".
Along with what Doug said, I also address the Air Screws to smooth the off idle transition.
The hunting is not a huge deal, and it can be smoothed out a bit by turning the idle up a little. But everyone almost knows these Muzzy's run like crap down low, out of the box. It's not like it's a big secret. They have a flat spot down low as wide as the grand canyon, and I found that to be the case with the Muzzy suppiled map, or a custom one with timing advance.
I will say that the custom map improved things a lot, but still not anywhere near as smooth as you would expect, imo.
Shane
PS. Psycho, is your bike a high compression 1270? Just curious as to your setup.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 08, 2010 08:01 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jul 2010 16:06
More reading, primarily on the Muzzy flat spot:
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-12r/11731-pilot-jet-mod-edited-successful.html
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-12r/39644-tuning-pciiir-muzzy.html
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-12r/39567-mikuni-pilot-jet-mod-full-exhaust-flat-spot.html
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-12r/39163-muzzy-full-exhaust-performance.html
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-12r/35366-full-muzzy-pipe-k-n-filters-pciiiusb-dead-spot.html
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-12r/32593-good-maps-muzzy-full-system.html
Like I said, the low rpm characteristics of this exhaust are hardly a secret. There is plenty more info out there. I'm sure that with enough work you can get it to smooth out some, but most people have not had a lot of luck wth it.
Shane
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jhinderliter
Zone Head
Hacksaw
Posts: 541
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posted July 08, 2010 08:56 AM
quote:
Assuming your bike is a 2000-2002, your bike can be tuned to run with almost zero hunt with the proper map, and the correct map will virtually eliminate the 2500 rpm hesitation (it's in the timing).
Call Dave at Muzzys and tell him what you need. You might need to refer to the map as "Doug's Map". If you can't get it from Muzzys, get back to me and I'll dig it up for you. (Might need to off-load it from my bike.).
The Muzzy pipe, being a 4-2-1 actually has great low end if properly mapped.
Doug
any idea on a yosh ems map for the same deal?
if i had the fuel and ign values from another map i could hand jam em in...
my 01 isnt hardely rideable in town with the 2500 rpm stumble...
do i need to fatten it up between 2 and 3k ?
any advice on where to put the timing?
thanks.
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My other ride is big and green too!!
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 08, 2010 09:19 AM
quote:
any idea on a yosh ems map for the same deal?
if i had the fuel and ign values from another map i could hand jam em in...
my 01 isnt hardely rideable in town with the 2500 rpm stumble...
do i need to fatten it up between 2 and 3k ?
any advice on where to put the timing?
thanks.
Take the PC out...Or Yosh ems, what ever you have in your 12...They dont need no stinkin PC for an untouched motor !!!
I recommend looking for a used Akrapovic pipe from any year 12...2000 to 2005 they all the same!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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jhinderliter
Zone Head
Hacksaw
Posts: 541
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posted July 08, 2010 09:33 AM
im runnin a full muzzy and BMCs
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My other ride is big and green too!!
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 08, 2010 09:54 AM
Edited By: 2000redrocket on 8 Jul 2010 17:58
ok
if you are just trying to easy ride around and get into the 2000 to 2600 area it is real over rich there. i had to take away a lot of fuel. but if you are going in 1st gear say 1500 where it ran good all the time and pulled a lot of throttle and it pulled then signed off then pulled again (the stumble) i had to add fuel to the other A-n map which the ecu switches to when it sences the higher load when you pull a lot of throttle.
according to my wego3 pinning it made a lean spot centering around 3000 rpms.
i put my stock ecu in and watched it with the muzzy and it was stupid rich at the 1900 to 2600 area just trying to ride through that area and not accelerating at all. there were a lot of rich areas with the stock ecu in the bike and the muzzy ti system. what made me want to fix it is i could hardly ride it in the "zone" Due to the shaking. in the zone when it was F***ing up and i pulled a lot of throttle it would jump back to 13.xx.
are any of you logging to see what the stumble is?
doug i never tried adding timing there and it still feals a tad weak in the zone but it fuels correctly now(this is just easy riding through the area not really accelerating through it) how many deg would you advance there?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 08, 2010 03:05 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 8 Jul 2010 23:06
Let me suggest something.
If you changed your exhaust and it ran just fine with the stock mapping, would you not conclude that the pipe had approximately the same flow characteristics as the stock pipe? Would that please you?
If you had to change the mapping and timing to get good driveability and more power, but also slightly change the nature of the idle sound, and raise the CO emissions beyond what your government requires, should that bother you?
If you took the time to learn what your bike needed to run well, and give more power under the entire curve, would you feel that that pipe was deficient in some way, that it should be designed not to require that?
Jabbascot-
Try a little test for me, and report back. Warm up your bike and let it idle in the "hunt" mode. Take a piece of cardboard and cover about 1/3 to 1/2 of the exhaust exit. Tell us what happens and what that suggests to you.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 08, 2010 03:40 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jul 2010 23:47
Ok Doug, well the Muzzy 4/2/1 pipes for the 12R do tend to run like crap down low, for most people. Even though you keep trying to argue it away, for some reason, most seem to have trouble with them. See the above multiple links that I posted.
I guess all of the tuners, and owners, who have trouble with this pipe are idiots. Kudos to Muzzy for making such a great running pipe. If only all of the owners and tuners were as smart as you, and Muzzy.
If only Akrapovic would have learned from Muzzy. Then they could have had the shitty running low end to complement the great top end. Genius, I tell you.
Shane
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 08, 2010 03:58 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jul 2010 23:59
Also, let's be honest here:
There are other pipes for the12R that make just as much power as the Muzzy...but without the flat spot. On all of my other bikes that I have run aftermarket pipes, none of them had such a flat spot.
It is a design characteristic of the pipe. Can it be tuned out? By some, perhaps. But clearly not even by most...and even the standard map that Muzzy supplies has the terrible flat spot as well.
Shane
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biggmoinc
Zone Head
Posts: 747
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posted July 08, 2010 04:52 PM
With all this being said, Shane would u say that an Akra pipe is better than muzzy on a zx12? disadvantages n advantages please, i know of one hardly used for 600(akra), N yes my muzzy sucks down low but i cant say if its the pipe cause the 2 times it was on a dyno they only messed with the upper throttle positions
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07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 08, 2010 04:58 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jul 2010 00:59
quote:
With all this being said, Shane would u say that an Akra pipe is better than muzzy on a zx12? disadvantages n advantages please, i know of one hardly used for 600(akra), N yes my muzzy sucks down low but i cant say if its the pipe cause the 2 times it was on a dyno they only messed with the upper throttle positions
The advantage of the Muzzy is cost. That is about it.
Build quality is much higher on the Akrapovic, and from what I have seen, power is at least equal...and smoother running at low rpm.
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted July 08, 2010 05:49 PM
Edited By: BrooklynNYZX12 on 9 Jul 2010 02:04
I liked my Muzzy on my 12 and didn't think the Akra justified the price,just ask CrotchRocket how much faster his bike was than mine.Rick's has an Akra and mine has a Muzzy otherwise identical setups and same rider. I would buy an M10 or a Brock pipe for my 14 I just want to hear each one in person before I purchase one...
On another note my bike had a slight idle hunt from new and another friend had an identical 03 and his bike idled smoother than mine both were purchased new...I think some bikes exhibited this to lesser and greater degrees depending on the bike. We can sit here and poke holes in DM's advice Shane but I always maintain that Muzzy was really the foremost aftermarket supplier for ZX12 goodies...Brock and the rest of the aftermarket didn't care much for it and didn't spare much time for the 12,not a personal thing it's just business for him and I understand that. I bought a 12 and turned to Muzzy for an exhaust .Guys like Doug Meyer saw the diamond in the rough that the 12 is and so did alot of others....it's raw,rough around the edges and was an underdog and even though I love my 14 and its a better all around ride,the 12 still moves me and it always will. Jabascot get a good map for that 12 enjoy that Muzzy pipe and how it sounds and keep some money in your pocket for other goodies.
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Orient Express Top Street Bike Winner 8-4-07
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 08, 2010 06:19 PM
i think and tell others if you put a pipe on a bike and do not need to tune it much or at all what did you get but more noise and maybe 5 to 10 hp. it seems our zx12s were set up with a lot of back pressure stock.un cork it and be injected aand mess up things. i will bet a anyone but muzzy side winder drab pipe would run as bad on the street down low. going to then shoot them full of holes on a shitty pipe?
doug at least no one said the muzzy did not make power.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 08, 2010 07:28 PM
quote:
I liked my Muzzy on my 12 and didn't think the Akra justified the price,just ask CrotchRocket how much faster his bike was than mine.Rick's has an Akra and mine has a Muzzy otherwise identical setups and same rider. I would buy an M10 or a Brock pipe for my 14 I just want to hear each one in person before I purchase one...
On another note my bike had a slight idle hunt from new and another friend had an identical 03 and his bike idled smoother than mine both were purchased new...I think some bikes exhibited this to lesser and greater degrees depending on the bike. We can sit here and poke holes in DM's advice Shane but I always maintain that Muzzy was really the foremost aftermarket supplier for ZX12 goodies...Brock and the rest of the aftermarket didn't care much for it and didn't spare much time for the 12,not a personal thing it's just business for him and I understand that. I bought a 12 and turned to Muzzy for an exhaust .Guys like Doug Meyer saw the diamond in the rough that the 12 is and so did alot of others....it's raw,rough around the edges and was an underdog and even though I love my 14 and its a better all around ride,the 12 still moves me and it always will. Jabascot get a good map for that 12 enjoy that Muzzy pipe and how it sounds and keep some money in your pocket for other goodies.
True That !!!...Im not saying to change to the Akrapovic if you have a Muzzy, if anyone thought that...Im sure many dont agree with me in running a 12 without a PC, but for those that feel they have to then you have to spend all the $$$ for tuning down low, when you can change the gearing, timing and live with a little bit of stumble which shouldnt be much of a problem since we are not at 2500rpm much...
I know you meant the M14...
I would get the Brocks CT for the 14
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 09, 2010 01:50 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jul 2010 13:08
Look, the bottom line is this:
The Muzzy DOES have low rpm tuning issues for most people. To a greater extent than other pipes. This characteristic is not required in order to make the peak power...as is evidenced by other top-performing pipes. Even on the 12R.
The funny part is that my intitial post in this thread was that the rough idle/low rpm issues were a characteristic of this pipe. After reading the "testimonials" in this thread, it's even harder to deny that. You can argue all you want about it in this thread, but it won't undue 10 years of flat-spots and complaints. 
As for keeping the pipe or selling it, I don't think that was the question. I ran a Muzzy on my 12R for 5 years...but I won't pretend that they run great down low.
Shane
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted July 09, 2010 03:32 AM
Flat spot?
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 09, 2010 04:32 AM
quote:
Look, the bottom line is this:
Th Muzzy DOES have low rpm tuning issues for most people. To a greater extent than other pipes. This characteristic is not required in order to make the peak power...as is evidenced by other top-performing pipes. Even on the 12R.
The funny part is that my intitial post in this thread was that the rough idle/low rpm issues were a characteristic of this pipe. After reading the "testimonials" in this thread, it's even harder to deny that. You can argue all you want about it in this thread, but it won't undue 10 years of flat-spots and complaints.
As for keeping the pipe or selling it, I don't think that was the question. I ran a Muzzy on my 12R for 5 years...but I won't pretend that they run great down low.
Shane
True That Too !!!
You get what you pay for !!!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted July 09, 2010 05:11 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jul 2010 13:20
quote:
Flat spot?
LOL! You complained more about your Muzzy flat spot than I did...even before your latest fueling changes. Remember trying to launch your bike at 3k rpm?? 
One must admire your "politically correct" response. 
Shane
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