D Mann 1
Parking Attendant
All custom nothing untouched!!
Posts: 19
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posted March 03, 2003 07:45 PM
Question Ted or Anyone ! Does anyone have a photo of what to grind, Where to not grind, and how much to grind off of the stacks etc, to adjust the stacks for this problem? I have not looked at the stacks yet but is this the same set of stacks that Muzzy sale's.. AFt Mrkt
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D Mann 1
   
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 03, 2003 08:07 PM
The lips I am talking about are molded into the intake boots on the throttle bodies. They are nothing more than a molded in lip that squeezes the intake track then it goes back to the original size, but the turbulance caused by this lip causes friction. To remove it, just remove the boot and grind out the lip, it is actually pretty prominent.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 03, 2003 08:09 PM
D Mann 1, I think the Bear/Muzzy stacks have the advantage of having that "lip" crap removed - isn't this the case guys?
Hell, this is a GREAT debate. I wish some people from KAwasaki Japan would read this board and respond - then maybe the TRUTH would leak! How cool would THAT be?  I guess it is all academic, as I LOVE My '12 no matter what. She is gonna be a PERMINENT addition to my stable.
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted March 04, 2003 01:37 PM
Let's just all remember that the hype about the ZX-12R's top speed came from the motorcycle magazines printing rumor, innuendo, and quoting unnamed "sources" within Kawasaki. I have never seen any press from Kawasaki itself prior to the 2000 release of the bike that alluded to *any* top speed.
The bike magazines were on a feeding frenzy about the possibility of the world's first 200 mph production bike, and when the bike only (!?!) went into the high 180s / low 190s, the magazines promptly trashed it and claimed that it must be restricted - in effect creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. The magazines built up the expectations then tore the bike apart when it didn't meet them.
I'm with Doug Meyer on this. There never was a statement by the manufacturer of the bike's performance potential...how can you then conclude that some restriction was added? It's simply not as aerodynamically efficient as a Busa. Big deal.
(Interestingly enough, after two years and some minor tweaks, the 2002 ZX-12R is being praised by all the magazines that trashed it when it couldn't go 200 mph. Is the 2002 model *that* much better? I doubt it. I think the magazine journalists finally got their expectations in line.)
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted March 07, 2003 06:40 PM
That's an interesting stance Zaphod, and a good one. You're right. Kawasaki never came out and said anything. Nor have they commit to anything in writing (at least nothing that I've seen) that states some sort of limiter on the bike. In terms of this Hayabusa/ZX-12R deal, it's a dead topic to me. Muzzy tested the ZX-12R (green) in 2000. They broke the bike in properly and in stock trim it ran a documented 192 miles per hour. Then Muzzy installed a full Muzzy exhaust on the same bike and ran it again. It ran a documented 199 mph. I don't care what anyone says, this is a fast, fast bike. It was fast in 2000, it's fast in 2003 and it'll be fast until Kawasaki stops building it.
RW
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 07, 2003 08:57 PM
Okay let me ask this, do the Muzzy's stacks have that lip in them?
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
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posted March 07, 2003 10:06 PM
no
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted March 09, 2003 01:16 AM
Just found the information I was looking for. It's at the following address:
www.esportbike.com/news/reviews/aug00/raptor.html
Doug piloted the bike to incredible speeds and commented that the numbers were repeatable. Further, there were no problems with the bikes. The lead story is about the Muzzy Raptor but the Main story (IMO) is about the 2000 ZX-12R ripping up the road. I enjoyed it and I think most of you will too.
RW
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 09, 2003 08:50 PM
quote:
no
Nuff said.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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MikeM
Novice Class
Posts: 49
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posted March 10, 2003 02:24 PM
The contributing factor for differing performance figures depending on which side of the atlantic you are on is emmisions. The emmisions regulations are tighter in the US, and particularly California, than anywhere in Europe with the exception of Switzerland.
I've not looked into it great detail on the 12 but back in the day I used to have a ZX7 and reading the factory manual made me glad to live in the UK. UK model, 122bhp at the crank - US model 118bhp at the crank. Swiss model 53bhp at the crank! The differing power figures came through different cams, head and base gaskets. Now the 7 as we all know is carbed and so les flexible as far as emmisions go when compared to an injected bike.
A different ECU could be needed for the US continent models as to meet the emmision regs may not be possible with a European ECU. If Kwak went the way of Ducati and Aprillia and allowed a changable E-prom within the ECU you guys in the US would be laughing!
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted March 11, 2003 03:10 AM
Keith Parnell, a long standing drag racer in the UK and himself a kawasaki dealer, told me of a recent conversation he had with the European director of Kawasaki Motors.
He had been called by this guy to congratulate him on his N/A 1200cc 12 achieving 202mph at RAF Woodbridge. He then went on to say "I'm not surprised, the test bikes in France were regularily hitting 210mph on the test track". He went on to say the bike was detuned due to the engine being considered too peaky and slight stability worries at these speeds.
The bike that gadson rode in 1999 was the detuned version, which kawasaki openly said at the shows had a top end of 198 to 202mph and obviously, it anihilated the 1/4 mile world record.
The bike was further detuned in Feb/Mar 2000, though the details of what they did is unknown. The agreement made in Feb 2000 between K, Suzi, Honda, etc stated that no bike capable of exceeding the present fastest would be launched IN 2000, and that a 300kph limit would apply from 2001.
The bike was in fact detuned twice. Once for sales purposes and once to meet the manufacturers agreemet to end the speed war in the face of threats of banning.
FK
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 11, 2003 05:48 AM
So..... how do we "REtune" it twice!! I want my power back!
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doubleaught
Novice Class
Posts: 45
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posted March 11, 2003 07:57 AM
You know, that sounds like what I expected from Kaw - a bike that would not equal, but clearly surpass the competition. But over the past 3 years, the guys out here have modified virtually every part of the bike, and as far as I know, nothing short of a big bore, turbo, or nitrous has ever gotten anyone up to 210. What would tey have detuned to make such a big difference?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted March 12, 2003 03:51 PM
Fearsome, with all due respect, I think you and your mate are drawing a false conclusion from what may be accurate data. I suspect that the "test track" cited was probably a large circle or oval such as the ones used here by the tire companies and automakers. In that case, you essentially have an unlimited length run. Couple that with near sea level air on a cool day and an experienced high speed tester, and maybe something as simple as an exhaust without the CAT or some good gas and you have a 210 mph speed (no wind or tailwind) with the bikes we ride today (and rode in 2000). There were two pre-production bikes sent here before the release group. Ricky got one and the other was dismantled at KMC. I have the engine from the disassembled one. This is the base I used for my Bonneville bike in 2000. I said then and I'll repeat, the production engines were "better" in many ways than the pre-pros and this is in keeping with past experience. The production engines are ALWAYS better. There was no restriction.
Doug
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 12, 2003 10:39 PM
Doug, if the engine mechanics are the same, can you tell if the engine management system and computer are the same pre-production to production? Maybe that is a stupid question, but some folks were talking about the "de-tune" being in the computer itself. This is a better conspiracy then the JFK assasination!
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FearsomeK
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted March 13, 2003 05:08 AM
Doug,
You are right, it was on an oval in France. However, there have been many tests done on ovals with the released 12, including the same track in France, and the best speed achieved was 193mph. A long long way from 210.
The test bikes had more aggressive cams and a stability problem according to this guy. He flat out refused to give the actual specs of the test bikes when asked.
Why on earth would Kawasaki give you guys a 9.5 second, c.150mph terminal 12R to show the world just how bad a motorcycle it was and then release a barely sub 10 second bike with low to mid 140 terminals? That is marketing suicide. Was the bike Rickey rode for Cycleworld just a poor example? Or is it the case that most of the bikes in the early mags were not run in properly or set up correctly which detracted from their top end capabilities?
I personally believe the achilles heel of the 12 is it's clutch. The same guys who spoke to the European director ran at RAF Woodbridge last year on their piped 12 with mild headwork. They had about 1.3 miles of a run. All day, they ran mid 180s. Different riders but same result. They put in a new Muzzy clutch....bang, 201mph which was repeated with Keith himself getting 199 (aged 65).
Could the wild variation between the bikes be down to the poor clutch set up or underlying design?
FK
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 13, 2003 03:00 PM
What I find interesting is that "wind variation" on the same day can move top speed from 184 to 199 - that is a BIG difference. I can believe it in some isloated cases, where wind may pick up 10 Mph or so - but how often does this happen, and WHY does it always seem to be the "out" used to describe performance differences on the '12? Maybe I'm bein naive, but seems like more than wind is probably at work??
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 14, 2003 01:39 PM
I actually had a strange revelation today (maybe this has been discussed before - I don't remebmer seeing it)
I was reading the silver zx-12r book that came with my 2000 (kinda leafing through it, never really looked at it too much). It has all kinds of interesting things in there... here are some items I noticed:
1. The book claims that the zx-12 "out of the box" produces 175 horsepower and that "ram air makes about 12 more"! WOW, most stock bikes I have seen (as delivered) only make about 162 or so. The book goes on to mention that Kawi could have made "up to 210 HP if not for the exhaust restrictions"... Is this crank vs. rear wheel HP, or can this be evidence of "a consipiracy?"
2. Has anybody checked the pix of all of the zx-12 parts they show in the book Vs. the "actual delivered zx-12 parts"? What I mean is.. things like the boot lip - can you see a pic of that in the book? How about some of the other parts? Are they the same?
I'm wondering if this book can give clues to support the claims of people that believe there was a "restiction". I bet the book was created WAAAY before delivery of the bikes, and probably would not have been updated to reflect any "last minute restriction changes". Can anyone more knowledgable in the zx-12 internals use this book as a set of clues?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 14, 2003 07:48 PM
The horsepower they were talking about was at the crank. Also I looked at all the pictures I could find and couldn't see the lip anywhere. There is a drawn cutaway and there was no lip.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted March 16, 2003 05:01 AM
look on page 49.
You will see an exhaust system that isnt the production. Nor is it the pre production.
It has two heat shields. The pre production had none and the production has one (the wire one).
Also note the perforated plate that robbs so much power. Its in there!
Notice the oil level in the engine on page 71. Notice this engine had been run but not ridden. You can see the discoloration of the stainless head pipes yet the tires are fresh.
Interesting.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 16, 2003 07:25 AM
CONSPIRACY!!! ALIENS BUILT MY MOTORCYCLE!!!
J/K - interesting, but probably non-conclusive. Looking in the book for clues was just a thought (and probably a stupid one ).
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tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted March 17, 2003 06:27 AM
And what I have also said last time when this thing was discussed. In the silver book You can see that the header has that khi number that is referenced for exhaust without cat - You can check it in Your manual - it is made for Australian market. So that can give You couple of the extra hp at the limiter and to the 400m times as Doug said a long ago - and also in the silver book You can see that the preproduction bike had weeker frame and also some other "missing" parts - as exhaust heat shield, only two bungee bolts etc. These with some other differences can make up couple of kg and explain the differences in quater mile. And in American mags they have always had different(=poorer) top speeds than in Europe, because of different Exhaust. I'd like to see a Australian topspeed test without cats - never seen one. Maybe those missing MPH are "down under" :-)
But to close my letter - I think this conversation never ends...
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