FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted February 26, 2003 07:03 PM
Speaking of restricted bikes, I saw a 2001 silver ZX-12R for sale in a local dealer here in the Chicagoland area just a couple days ago. Can you believe that this thing has never been bought or ridden? It's brand new but was never sold!! The shop couldn't sell it and now that the new ZX-12R model is out, they're struggling to get it off the floor. I'm thinking about getting it but I wanted to ask anyone who's ridden both the first and second generation ZX-12R if there's really any difference in the bikes (acceleration, top speed, handling, breaking). I will be adding a full Muzzy and PCIII box. Which ZX-12Rs are better for modifying? Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
  
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted February 26, 2003 11:57 PM
They're all the same.. if you can grab it fer a deal then go fer it IMHO...
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r21xz
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted February 27, 2003 12:33 AM
If these crazy machines are restricted,I dont care.When mine was still stock,with a yellow box spot-on,I watched my speedo go past 190.It got there very briskly,also.Pulled,and pulled,and pulled til I let off.On a road I really should'nt have done it on. An R1 got a jump on me,so when I reeled him in,I just stayed on it.Now with the full Akro,jeeze..........
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Koz
Expert Class
Posts: 304
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posted February 27, 2003 04:22 AM
When the 12 was in the final stages of development there were reports of 200 mph speeds. Then the carpet was pulled out from under the top speed war, from countries like France - Germany HMMM!, when they threatened to disallow the sale of a 200 mph motorcycle. The top sportbike makers agreed to limit all motorcycles from that point on. Kawasaki agreed to release the 12, saying it will be released with the exact same top speed as the current record holder (busa). Doesn't it seem a little funny that the 12 and the busa are SO close in performance. I don't believe that Kawasaki couldn't produce a faster 12, shit, all they had to do was equal the CCs and the busa would have been history. The truth will be told one day.
Also, when Kawasaki was asked about the aerodynamics of the 12, they said it doesn't matter (about things like mirrors) because they were getting the mph they targeted for.
Also don't get caught up in all those wind tunnel test results. Those tests also showed the GSXR to have better numbers. A 200+hp GSXR-1000 built by one of the best builder, could only manage 192mph at Maxton, yet a 175hp 12, managed 199mph. Numbers from tests are exactly that "Numbers".
Koz
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FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted February 28, 2003 12:58 AM
Thanks Fish Antlers for the info on the ZX-12Rs. I was wondering because I read all kinds of reports about all these changes and corrections Kawasaki made between 2001 and 2002. When I saw the performance numbers they really didn't look all that different to me. I guess it really doesn't matter because as soon as I get the thing broken in I'm going to put in a 1361 kit with a Muzzy exhaust and PCIII. It'll make more than enough power then.
RW
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted February 28, 2003 08:01 AM
I have said it before and will say it again, yes it was restricted, and is super easy to unrestrict. But don't listen to me.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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magzx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 252
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posted March 01, 2003 08:31 AM
TedG, are you talkin about the "lip" on the stacks?
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Mark
'03 ZX-12R
'12 1199S
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D Mann 1
Parking Attendant
All custom nothing untouched!!
Posts: 19
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posted March 01, 2003 12:51 PM
Ok Ted G, what does it take to unrestrict the ZX12 and what year does this work on ???
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D Mann 1
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted March 01, 2003 09:04 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it agian, no it wasn't restricted and there's nothing to unrestrict. 
Doug
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 01, 2003 09:29 PM
quote:
TedG, are you talkin about the "lip" on the stacks?
Yep.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted March 01, 2003 10:02 PM
Restricted or not, the 12R is a formidable bike. If someone told me the ZX-12R was restricted I'd take it as a compliment. With all the beatings that the 12R has dealt to every other bike on the road, maybe Kawasaki felt that a restriction was the only way to keep things close and interesting. Look at all the power that's coming from ZX-12Rs with Muzzys and PCIIIs. These are simple changes and the output over stock is really quite measureable! If Kawasaki did decide to restrict the ZX-12R it was a good decision because anything more powerful than what they released would surely be too much for the general public!
RW
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D Mann 1
Parking Attendant
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posted March 01, 2003 11:05 PM
I here what Dougs is saying, But It still leaves me a lil baffled about your point with the stacks, please explain !!
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D Mann 1
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted March 02, 2003 07:35 AM
I think TedG means that the stacks allow the '12 to get close to 200 Mph with a pipe/pcIIIr/airfilter (and the right conditions/rider) - is that right Ted?
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Zhooligan
Moderator
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posted March 02, 2003 09:07 AM
Only by the laws of pysics and aerodynamics.
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has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted March 02, 2003 09:28 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 2 Mar 2003 09:31
I'm in the "was no restriction" camp.
The muffler would have been 5-8 hp better if that flat perforated plate wasnt in there.
The timing issue is no different than any other production bike. Advance it a little and theres a few HP.
The airfilters arnt any different than any other production bike. Modify it or replace it with a cotton/gauze filter and theres a few HP.
If Kawi wanted to "restrict" the bike the easiest and fastest and cheepest way would have been to change the software in the EE-prom in the ECU.
They would have connected to it and reburned it.
But I've never seen any proof of them doing that. And from the optimum timing curve and fuel table changes I've seen on stock piped 2000s tells me they didnt do that.
Possably the pre production (gadson) bike didnt have that perforated plate in the muffler. ?? who knows.
Busa owners cant dispute that the zx12r is the most powerfull production bike ever made.
And half the time is was the fastest top speed production bike ever made. And it is the quickest 1/4 mile production bike ever made.
So 2-1/2 out of 3 aint bad. Oh, it looks better! 3-1/2out of 4 
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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D Mann 1
Parking Attendant
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posted March 02, 2003 11:05 AM
Edited By: D Mann 1 on 2 Mar 2003 11:07
quote:
Busa owners cant dispute that the zx12r is the most powerfull production bike ever made.
And half the time is was the fastest top speed production bike ever made. And it is the quickest 1/4 mile production bike ever made.
So 2-1/2 out of 3 aint bad. Oh, it looks better! 3-1/2out of 4
I agree with that one........... Thanks DeathPulse for clearing that up for me, just wondering about it !!!
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D Mann 1
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Blues_Cat
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted March 02, 2003 08:36 PM
Food for thought -----
-- When the U.S. magazine guys (Motorcyclist and Cycle World) tested the '00 model they got top speeds of 183 and 187 (if I remember correctly).
-- When the European magazine guys tested the '00 model they got top speeds in the low 190's (191-195 or thereabouts??).
-- The muffler assembly was different on the '00 U.S. and European versions (different part number). Want to guess who got the more restrictive muffler assembly?
-- The '00 U.S. model picks up SEVERAL mph on top speed with a simple exhaust system swap. Can't say for sure how much gain (if any) was obtainable on the European bikes by changing exhaust.
Come to your own conclusions.
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Blues_Cat
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted March 02, 2003 08:59 PM
Still hungry? More food ----
-- The ECU part numbers were different for U.S. and European models (again, if memory is correct).
-- Looking at Kawasaki's specifications for the '00 models, the European models were listed as making peak horspower at 10,500 rpm. The U.S. and Canadian models were listed as making peak horsepower at 9,500 rpm.
OK, I don't know if the different muffler assembly or the different ECU (or the combination of both?) made the difference in performance, but one thing is for sure --- if you're making peak power 1,000 rpm closer to redline or the rev limiter that will definitely help you on top speed runs!!
What I find most annoying about it is that it was the European countries crying for the speed restrictions, yet they were the ones that got the best package in stock form. Fuckers!!!
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TedG
Moderator
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posted March 03, 2003 10:21 AM
Here is where I differ from Y2K. He feels that a "simple CPU change" would make all the difference. Here is why I beg to differ. If you take a PCIIIr and no other mods, does it really make much of a difference? Also a "simple CPU change" is probably the hardest change to make. The code is probably very simple, testing that code is not, I mean look how long it has taken everyone just to fine tune the PCIII, also if the CPU is not reprogrammable it would be dead expensive to replace 4000 of them. This is what I do for a living, I write embedded systems, changing hardware is easy, firmware(software) is a bitch. On the other hand, those boots would be cheap and easy. The boots probably only cost a buck each after retooling. changing them is relatively easy, and all that would be accomplished by inserting that lip is a classic NASCAR restriction. Not much of one but enough to only effect top end. IMHO.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Zhooligan
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posted March 03, 2003 10:43 AM
The lip you are talking about ted is it in the stack going from the air box into the injectoor bodies or the boot from the injector body to the head? Trying to get a handle on the location.
thanks.
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has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 03, 2003 12:54 PM
Air box to injector bodies. Easily accessed from the airbox access plates. 2 bolts and a bit of grinding and all is gone. I did it a while back. Top end runs at the same place about the same conditions, yielded a 4-5(indicated) mph increase with no discernible drawbacks. Popped it up to an indicated 213ish.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 03, 2003 03:13 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 3 Mar 2003 15:17
Ted, I agree that a hardware change would be expensive. I think it would be the least realistic option. But a good map can be made in hours once the R&D of the sustem was ironed out like we are talking.
For obvious reasons they wouldnt have changed the fuel. But the ignition timing would be all that was needed.
If you remove timing at high revs the peak cylinder pressure is reduced. Also the crank position in degrees that the peak happens at changes.
What happens is the expanding gasses are expanding at the same rate but at a later time in the cycle. So the swept volume rate has been effectively "advanced". Really the gas expansion was started later and there is less work converted to torque even thou the available BTUs are exactly the same. This is very critical on the zx12r engine because of the bore stroke ratio. This is one reason the engine responds to various changes so well. In the same instance you can remove power very easily on an engine of this configuration. It works both ways.
But I still dont see any proof that the ECU is to blame.
As far as the intake tract as a whole assembly, As you guys know I had the head of my 2000 on the flow bench in 2000. I did quite a bit of testing on it. I smoke tested it, checked flow every .020" of lift on every port. Normally I would only do 1 of each port and every .100"
I tested with and with out the stacks, with and w/o the throttle bodies, with and without exhaust pipe, etc.
The smoke was injected where the injectors would be, and sealed. then the smoke was thru the stacks.
Then I cleaned up the head below the valves and modified the chambers slightly. Matched the rubber manifolds to the head. Smoothed the transition from stack to throttle body. After all this there was very little gain. The biggest gains were on the exhaust side short turn and the chamber rework. The percentage of airflow gain was less than you can count on one hand. When you translate that added airflow into HP is was rediculusly low. It doesnt cost me a dime to use the flow bench. But I will say this, porting on the ZX12r head is a waste of time and money unless you plan to use use larger valves. Your money is better spent on increasing the bore.
So in a nut shell, the misalignment and and/or lip in the intake tract, mean almost zero as far as airflow is concerned. When smoke testing, the rough casting in the port walls create more turbulance than the mismatches do.
The boundry layer is less in the throttle bodies and stacks than in the port.
So from the testing I've done you wouldnt gain anywhere near the HP required to increase from 186 mph to 187 mph from any port work.
If you remember the HP required formula for a speed increase above 180 mph this will make sence.
Hope this helps.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 03, 2003 04:56 PM
quote:
All Kawi did during the delay was to Install a more restrictive exhaust can and overfill the engine w/ oil.
Dyno results show this.
Also, Listen to Doug....You all will have more time on your hands.
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TedG
Moderator
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posted March 03, 2003 05:31 PM
If you don't debate things, people lose. Yes I don't have a flow bench. All that I do know is that they had to do something quick, and cheap. Does anyone here think that Kwak would design the 12 without it being able to at least better the Busa in top speed? At least according to what the magazines had been reporting. So what would be the easiest and cheapest way to do this job? Change the ECU, even their price would be 200ish per. Not to mention the programming costs. No. Change the Titanium pipe?? Not likely, effective but too costly. Change the filters? Too much affect on overall performance. Nah. Change the TB boots? Hmm probably $4 in parts, can be done in the crate, and they only wanted to take the edge off at top speed. With the ram air effect so crucial to that last little bit of top end, the extra turbulence and friction developed by those lips and maybe the shape of the boot could knock off a few MPH. That is what I think. All I have to go by the results I got. It most assuredly could have been the weather conditions or whatever, but it went faster without the lips and drivability did not suffer in any detectable way. It surely would have been the cheapest, easiest way to restrict it. No programming, the MAP sensor would compensate. And it wouldn't show up on the dyno unless you simulated the ram air effect. Then make sure that there was too much oil in there before you turn it over to the magazines and you are home free. Also I don't think it was the Euroweenies and much as it was the American insurance companies.
Let me make one thing clear, what Y2K says is not something I take lightly, his views on this stuff is great stuff, I just disagree on this one thing. Even his views on politics need serious consideration. Well maybe with a grain of salt. :P
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted March 03, 2003 05:39 PM
In defense of the Hayabusa guys, I don't know who was claiming the 'Busa to be the most powerful streetbike. I ride a Hayabusa and I know the ZX-12R puts more horses to the rear wheel. The ZX-12R is truly the world's most powerful sportsbike.
This problem concerning European vs. North American models seems to be a bigger issue to discuss to me. Why is it that everything over there is faster and more powerful? The cars are quicker and faster, they have the Autobahn, they have faster bikes, etc. What gives? Remember the Return of MACH 2 video? The Kawasaki outran everything if memory serves me correctly. This would definitely support the argument that crossing the Atlantic Ocean does strange things to vehicles.
RW
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