DaveInDaytona
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posted December 18, 2002 08:55 PM
Is a Dealer Responsible ???
This is a ZX-12 story, sort of.
A new Kawasaki/Aprila dealer opened in Daytona earlier this year. During their grand opening they got in a Blue 2002 ZX-12 and had it on their floor for people to see. Well shortly after that opening I was told a story by a friend that witnessed the person that was shopping that bike. During the conversation with the salesman the customer asked "what's that for" while pointing to the shifter. In case you didn't get it the customer had never been on any motorcycle of any type before that day and had no idea how they worked. You can see where this is going..... the guy bought the new 2002 Candy Thunder Blue ZX-12R as his FIRST bike, EVER.
When I was told the story I half thought it was a bunch of crap, much like you may be thinking about now. Well I was at that dealer getting some tires mounted yesterday and guess what I see in the service department, a 2002 Blue ZX-12R. Well most of one anyway. It was across the shop behind some stuff and the only blue plastic still on it was the tank cover but I knew what it was. I asked the service geek if that was a ZX-12 back over there. He said yes, it's getting worked on, it's been down a few times. He then proceeded to tell me the "funny" story about how a guy who had never ridden before came in and bought it. Asshole, I fail to see the humor. It now has 227 miles on it and is being repaired from the latest fall. He also said the owner was going to sell it after it was fixed. Apparently falling does improve your reasoning powers.
My question is this: If you were a salesman in a motorycle dealer and someone that you knew had never been on a motorcyle, and didn't even know anything about them, came in and wanted to buy a ZX-12R, would you sell it to them and send them on their way to probably kill themselves ? You can guess what I think about it, but I'd be interested in hearing some other opinions.
Dave
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kzz1
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posted December 18, 2002 09:42 PM
 Edited By: kzz1 on 18 Dec 2002 21:47
Its all about money...it makes the world go round and round 
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ZHooligan
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posted December 18, 2002 09:48 PM
Edited By: ZHooligan on 19 Dec 2002 08:39
The interesting thing about this is the dealer is actually screwed either way. If he doesn't sell it he is discriminating and or opening him/its self up to a law suit. Also once a dealer refuses to do this for a single customer he is then also now on record as being some kind of an authority on who should or should not have a motorcycle. So then comes the issue with anyone who dies on a bike his or her family then sues the dealer because they should have known better. It is called personal responsibility.
Now if we wish to live like europeans and let the government direct us in everything we do. We can chose a system by which we have to get a permit from the government prior to buying a bike. A Zx12 is not a AA Fueler. It is not overly pipey or un predictable. A level headed person exercising intelligence and maturity can learn to ride the 12 as their first bike. Learning to ride a 250 Honda rebel does not make you qualified to ride a 12. But the reality is I have met a number of very inexperienced riders on 12's and busas that have managed to keep the rubber side down.
I would be more inclined to sell a ZX12 to someone then a CR500 or KX500. I would most certainly look at a TLR or GSXR as a more difficult bike to learn on then a 12. I also can understand why a person is reluctant to buy a beginner bike and then 3 months later be stuck with a little underpowerd piece of crap wishing for a 12 or some other bike. Harley has actually made an attempt (as a manufacture they are to be applauded for it in my book) to address this issue. The have offered the little 440 blast (I might be wrong on the name) as a starter bike. And if a person buys the 440 new and wants to upgrade to a sportster or larger within a year they give you back full price on the little bike for your trade in.
I as joe Q citizen have seen people buying a rocketship first bike. I have made it a practice to talk with them about the decision, offered info on schools, suggested a different bike, and or other options. Usually this is greeted with an occasional thank you but usually it is mind your own business. In our county a few years ago this happened to the local Kawi/Suzuk dealer. He sold a GSXR600 to a kid. The kid died a few days later. Nasty things were written in the paper about the dealer, they were sued and in the end the court and jury found the dealer not at fault. They decided that mom and dad who cosigned the loan and the kid were responsible for their own actions. A novel concept!
If you want to get on a soap box and really start looking at responsibility. Especially as a guy living in Old folks Florida, answer this question for me. Instead of being concerned about an inexperienced rider on a 12, why do we allow a 70, 80, 90 you name it old person, that took their drivers test when they were 16 years old, to buy a 48 foot motorhome, and then hook up their 26 foot boat to it and then run down the interstate to who knows where at 70 miles an hour without any training, competence testing and or a special license? In the case of motorcycles it is usually a young person that will likely be detered because of a lack of credit anyway. Older folks have credit. They may not be able to see, turn their heads, or even know who they are but they are given a free pass. And as is often the case they may not even be in an accident and it is just a coincidence that the roads they travel are littered with accidents and injuries of people that reported a large Motorhome being driven eraticlly in front of them that cut them off, pulled out in front of them, ran them off the road etc!!!
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kzz1
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posted December 18, 2002 09:54 PM
Ya gotta eat and pay the bills...so.... I'd say I would sell as many as I could
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ninja12
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posted December 18, 2002 09:55 PM
I'd like to think MOST people would try to talk them into something smaller.
If a grown man wanted to buy a zx12, busa, or vette as there first vehicle i
don't see how a saleperson could or should stop them. Would you refuse the sale knowing that the person can go down the street and buy for the next shop?
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DaveInDaytona
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posted December 18, 2002 10:50 PM
ZHooligan,
There's no soap box here, I asked for opinions. You said you do what I expected someone at the dealer to do in that position, suggest schools, other bikes, or at least give an understanding of what they are getting into, but they didn't. I guess that's legally ok because they aren't responsible for what other people get themselves into. What bothers me is the attitude of the person at the dealer that I talked to yesterday. Basically he thought it was funny that they sold the bike to this non riding idiot and he wrecked it. I'm still failing to find the joke because I'd feel somewhat responsible if it was me, I guess that's one reason I'm not in motorcycle sales.
Legally I think an adult can make the decision to buy and ride anything he/she wants and the dealer is not responsible for what happens to them. Since the dealer is in business to sell bikes what I would hope is that that same dealer would help them make an informed decision because if that person has the ability to buy a bike like that from the start chances are they may be a good repeat customer. Now instead they have one that's crashed enough times that they are giving up. How is that good for business ?
I'm not sure what old people and motorhomes have to do with a person selling a motorcyle but since you asked I think anyone driving one of those things needs to show the ability to handle it without being a danger to themselves or others, no matter what the age. Having the same license valid for driving a car OR a 40+ foot motorhome seems stupid. There should be some additional training and testing before you are allowed to drive them. And since you mentioned old people I also think there should be more frequent driver testing for older drivers too.
To me personally the inexperienced rider on the 12, or any big cc sportbike, is more of a concern to me. They are a danger to themselves and everyone around them. They also get their crash, ticket, and claim statistics filed in the same category as the bikes I ride and that effects our insurance rates and how the public looks on sportbike riders too.
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ZHooligan
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posted December 18, 2002 11:09 PM
The reason I brought up the motor home situation is because the motorcycle rider typically hurts himself. The motorhome driver hurts several people. In many states including mine they don't require motorcycle owners to have insurance because suposedly we don't do that much property damage.
And I do understand the concern about our insurance rates. But in truth it is kids riding 600's that are killing us with insurance rates. That and the manufactures. They sell us a motorcycle that retails for about $12,000. It falls over and damages the fairing, and the frame and it is totaled. I would be curious to see what it would cost retail to buy the parts to build a 12 from Kawasaki. Probably $40 grand! Snap On claims that they can sell you a air tool or other special tools as an assembled tool or sell it to you in parts for the same price. If Motorcycle manufactures did this our insurance would be less because a parking lot crash would cost $300 dollars and not result in totalling the bike. A bit off of your topic but I beleive a serious contributor to the insurance issue. It is also going to be the ultimate demise of the motorcycle industry. If I were an insurance company I wouldn't offer insurance for motorcyles until the manufactures and dealers decided to stop ripping everyone off.
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DaveInDaytona
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posted December 18, 2002 11:37 PM
Good point about the parts. I think car parts may be the same case but just not to the extreme as a motorcycle.
While we're talking about parts I needed to pick up some stuff and thought while I was there I would do it. The dealer wanted double the price I got from Ron Ayers on every part that I needed. Literally 100% more on everything on my list. They also didn't even have any of what I was looking for in stock so they couldn't use the "it costs to keep it in stock" line. Sorry, that's a rant for another time.
Oh, motorcycle insurance is not required in Florida UNLESS you want to ride without a helmet. If you want to ride without a helmet then you need proof of medical insurance that will cover at least $10,000 in injuries in the event of a crash. That in a year round riding state, go figure. In case you're wondering I have full coverage with the highest limits available.
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oldkawboy
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posted December 19, 2002 03:16 AM
As experienced riders I know we cannot change the world, but we can at least have some input.
As Dave knows, both of my son's work at a local Kaw/Yam dealership (parts & service) and I spend quite a bit of time there. I can honestly say that I have seen their salesmen "guide" new riders, any age, to smaller 'cc bikes. Whether it be dirt bikes, cruisers or sportbikes.
Recently there was a father and teenage son looking for the boys first streetbike. The salesman had me answer some of the dads questions such as age restrictions and bike sizes, which I did. But most importantly I explained the growing process my sons went through. Both rode YSR 50's, a SRX 250, 400 Bandit, ZX6R, GSXR 750, ZX9R and now a R-1 and ZX12.
While I realize this is not a guarantee to a lifelong security of motorcycle riding, I feel that I have helped prepare them.
I know the salesmen have to make a living but they are also motorcyclist and want the sport to survive, like wise the riders live to trade up to larger bikes.
This does not happen everywhere and I realize "Big Brother" should not protect people from themselves but I help out whenever I can and so do our local salemen.
Dan
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TurboBlew
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posted December 19, 2002 03:43 AM
All valid and very interesting points
Fortunately and unfortunately we dont have gov't intervention on these issues.
I was 17 and owned a 100hp motorcycle that I had no business being on.
I learned my lesson by putting the bike in a brick wall riding way over my head. My parents probably could have "prevented" the whole situation by simply letting me own a motorcycle (or dirtbike) or at least getting me into a rider course and not labeled them as "hoodlum" vehicles...hehe.
But some adults dont always act there age....only their shoe size. 
The saleman can compromise by selling the "new" rider protective gear, but the salesman cant go home with the customer to make sure he wears it. The old adage about a horse and some water applies here. 
I do believe there should be stricter licensing requirements...but thats another issue. The FL & NJ motorcycle license tests are a joke coupled with the fact that you can take the road portion on a 50cc scooter.
As for the FL helmet law...what a joke. I remember one of the main "lobbyists" was killed in an m/c accident 2 weeks after the enactment of the no helmet/insurance law.
I asked my insurance agent how many policies he's written for "helmetless insurance". His answer....NONE.
It always amazes me when guys ride out to the beach where I live and have $8,000 motorcycles and a $500 helmet hanging off the lock, in heavy traffic. I once asked a younger guy why he didnt wear his helmet. He replied, "Because it restricts my vision" I laughed. Some folks will never learn.
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OZZY
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posted December 19, 2002 05:52 AM
I have to agree with ZH on this. I think he said it well.
Harley may not make the type of shit we here want to own, but they do know something that NONE of the other manufacturers do-- Marketing.
The local dealer here has an add that says buy a Buell Blast and for the next year they will give you 100% of the price on trade for a new Harley. What a good way to get someone into biking, and have them return to buy your overpriced shit at a later date , all the time being happy as hell.
Absolutely no reason that other brands cant do the same. Learn on a learners bike and move up. Kind of like ride dirt bikes as a kid, then get a street bike.
Only problem with that is the price of a dirt bike today. How in the hell can a CR, YZ, whatever cost nearly as much as a 600 class sportbike?
What ever happened to the motorcycle more people learned on than any other in the last 35 yrs(my opinion), the Trail 90 Honda?
We dont need the goverment telling us what to buy, we need the manufacturer to produce something for us to buy that facilitates a learning curve we can LIVE with.
Merry Christmas to all.
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kawachan
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posted December 19, 2002 07:43 AM
quote:
But most importantly I explained the growing process my sons went through. Both rode YSR 50's, a SRX 250, 400 Bandit, ZX6R, GSXR 750, ZX9R and now a R-1 and ZX12.
Dan
Dan, your boys and I have almost the same progression!! I started out on an SL125; then bought my first street bike, a red/wht SRX 250. Sold it to buy my first new bike, a Bandit 400, then up to an RF 600, SRAD 750, back to a 6 for a year when I first got married, then back up to a ZX-9. Sold that and bought a Busa since the 12 wouldn't ever come in. Traded UP to a 12 about a month and a half later....
DID, ZH pretty much said it. Personal responsibility is key. I would (and do to people I hear before they buy a bike) try to guide them in the right direction. One of my buddies just upgraded from his 750 to a 12. First he had a 600 that he learned on. Bought a 750 for a year and was real comfortable on it. He then rode my 12 and felt he could handle the extra HP. Progression works!!
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bigju
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posted December 19, 2002 08:55 AM
I think as a sales person, you have to treat people like people. Everyone is different, I personally think you should talk to the customer and if they are not a rider you should try to tell them about the MSF classes. You can't stop a person from buying what they want. But you can give advice on the product your selling. To me a good sales person is on who knows the product they sell, or that is humble enough to find out what they don't know. I just think the owner of the Blue 12 could have been more informed prior to his purchase
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bagster
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posted December 19, 2002 09:18 AM
sort of the same progression here too...
SL350 twin. (street bike on dirt with semi-bald knobbies and no mufflers)
CZ-250 and 400 (dirt)
KTM-420 (dirt)
V-45 Magna 750
KZ-1000 with mods
GPZ-1100 with mods
RMX-250 (dirt)
Dual sport 650
ZX12
I feel that it is the person who is buying the motorcycles responsibility for safety, not the dealer.
Although the dealer should inform them how serious the danger of the big bikes speed/power can be.
Anyone (with the $$$) can go buy a 700Hp+ viper as their first car, that doesn't mean they know how to handle it or drive safely with it, and I don't think the dealer would try to stop them.
The same goes for bikes.
Willpower and common sense is the only thing stopping the 12 from going top speed all the time.
Do most beginners honestly have what it takes to "keep it safe" on this caliber of a bike?
Merry Christmas everyone, drive safe.
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beansbaxter
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posted December 19, 2002 11:23 AM
My first bike was a 1990 Ninja 750R. While I dropped it a couple times, that was just learning the getting into first gear and starting it out. I never crashed though, and still today (seven years later) I havent crashed (knock on some wood). I didnt take my first motorcycle course till last year, ended up taking the Advanced Course offered by our state.
To be perfectly honest, the 12 was waaaay too much motorcycle for me the first day I bought it. I called up Shumate Motorsports in TriCities, WA, and said I wanted it and I'll be there tomorrow to pick it up, so have it ready. He didnt ask me anything, prequalify my previous street experience, nothing. It didnt bother me at the time, I knew what I wanted. But....
Try to get insurance on a 12 and some companies whom I wont mention names (Geico), have sooo many factors for insurance, that one factor was my past riding experience. They wanted to know every motorcycle I've ever riden in the past and make a progression of history. I've had a 600, a 750, and now a 1200. I see some gaps there, and I had to lie about what I had owned just to get past that point. Of course, it didnt matter since I still dont have insurance but oh well.
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brain
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posted December 19, 2002 12:23 PM
I sell SeaRay sport cruisers and yachts and there is no requirments for owning and operating these crafts. I have customers that purchase half million dollar boats as there first boat ever.In rare instances a death will occur because they are in over there head,but property damage is another issue,they all hit something.I try to qualify customers but if a man wants something thats bigger and better than his neighbors and has the money to get it i"ll be damned if i'm the one to tell him no
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frEEk
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posted December 19, 2002 12:28 PM
good discussion! i think everything i would offer on the topic has already been said. i don't think the dealer should be help legally responsible, but i do think they should try to talk the purchaser out of the inappropriate bike. how u enforce that is anybody's guess. for that reason, i prefer to have NO responsibility on the dealer, but make an MSF style course mandatory. the teachers there can educate would be riders about issues with types & sizes of bikes, and the students may actually listen to them (unlike the dealer). if u buy ur big bike & take it to the course, great (tho u'll likely never pass). if u take the course on a little bike then go out & buy a 12r, u'v been warned & trained, so if u still get into shit, that's just ur entry into the darwin awards.
my first bike was a honda nighthawk 450. cheap ass old standard bike. it was a piece of shit & a perfect bike to learn on. never took any classes or even lessons from a friend (unfortunately), and the next season i bought the 12. it was a huge jump in terms of power, handling, and style of bike, and i knew that, largely because the dealer warned me of it. i took that warning to heart & never opened her past 25% fer a few days, then not past 50% for several weeks. course, it helped that i stuck to the break in schedule, which meant i stayed out of the danger zone anyway. but i tell ya one thing, the suspecsion & frame on the 12 was SO much better than on the nighthawk, i wonder which would be the safer learning bike. i never realised it before, but when i rode the nighthawk from whistler to vancouver (about 70 miles of semi-twisties) several months after buying the 12, it positively scared me. the thing was so wobbly, the brakes were so shit, i didn't feel safe fer 1 second of that ride.
anyhow, point is, i believe the dealer has a responibility to be.... well, responsible and try to talk a little sense into a customer, but if they dont listen, that's the customer's problem. but mandatory MSF courses is the only real solution i can think of. hell, i'd like to say u have to retake the test (including a few laps around a track) whenever u buy a different class of bike, but that's a little to regulated to sit well with most people.
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ZHooligan
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posted December 19, 2002 12:32 PM
Now that is both scarey and funny brain.. I have operated a few boats in my time, but I can only imagine a first time buyer hopping in his 40 , 50,60 or bigger boat and backing it out of the slip and taken it out. Even more of a thrill watching them bring it in to a boat slip with various other boats aound! Hard to Port, I mean right, left oh shit sound the collision alarm!!! Abandon ship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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DaveInDaytona
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posted December 19, 2002 12:41 PM
Big boats and the people that attempt to navigate them, that is scary too. I grew up watching people with no navigational skills while I was on my grandpa's ferry boat that crossed the Mississippi every summer do some of the most amazing things with boats.
Now I can go to one on the local restaurant/marina places around here and do the same. It's a never ending example of money and ego meeting inexperience on the water.
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DIGG
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posted December 19, 2002 01:56 PM
MOTORCYCLE SAFETY FOUNDATION
I AM THE SERVICE MANAGER AT A DEALERSHIP IN KNOXVILLE TN. IF WE SEE SOME ONE WHO HAS NEVER RIDDEN A BIKE BEFORE WE HIGHLY RECC THE MOTORCYCLE SAFETY FOUNDATION COURSE. THE COURSE IS THREE DAYS LONG, AND IS A VERY GOOD COURSE. MY WIFE TOOK THE COURSE AND IS A BETTER RIDER BECAUSE OF IT.
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slug
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posted December 19, 2002 03:41 PM
good topic.
i do not think the dealership has the responsibility to make sure the rider is safe. however it DOES make good BUSINESS sense to make sure the rider is going to be safe on that machine, whether it be a bike, a jetski, or a 4-wheeler. to make jokes and take bets on how long the 'newbie on the 12' can hold the bike upright is retarded.
a person has their own choices to make. many make bad choices. many get (and i hesitate to use this word) unlucky. as in they are the victim of someone ELSE'S bad decision
there are folks who will advocate a litre class bike as the perfectbeginner bike "because you won't grow out of it" these type of people have NO business giving out advice like that, ESPECIALLY to folks they consider friends.
i still ride a 600. i feel that i am still learning the extent of the bike's and my capabilities. ive not grown bored with it, but then again i am not your most 'fashionable' rider. there are 2 or 3 bikes that are larger that i would consider buying as an 'upgrade'. the 12 is one, as it has the comfort of the bike i have now, and gobs of power. the other 2 are v-twins, an older tl would be cool, and brand new i'd get the mille R. (pipe dreams yeh yeh)
my first bike was an old UJM, yamaha maxim 700. it had crap brakes, crap suspension, crap jetting, and overall crap condition. would i advocate something like that as first bike? well perhaps a lighter machine would be better. by crap though, i dont mean that it hadnled badly or anything, but it wasn't nearly as sharp as a modern sportbike. the brakes weren't ace, but they worked well. the suspension made easy work out of the rough roads in hawai'i. the jetting WAS crap, some meathook had drilled the jets out by hand...it would empty the tank in 100 miles....
but it had a few things going for it. 1. no fairings. a spill meant wiping the dirt off, polishing the scratches out and continuing on. 2. upright seating position. good leverage for controls and steering, and higher point of view. also made close in stuff easy. very good bike for msf or rider endorsement test on drivers license. 3. insurance was cheap. worth almost nothing, easily repaired, not a highly sought after bike for theives.
did i think going to a 600 was a step down? not really, as i had researched before hand, and gathered lots of info, and knew that the 600 was a far better performer. but some folks DID. all they do is count cubes, and if it falls short of their 'expectation' it is crap.
anyway i guess i agree with dave in that the dealer made a poor choice, their attitude sucks. i'd not shop there personally.
as far as other factors, i really DO wishthere were more controls on driver licensing. there are too many people on the highways with NO business being there. cops ought to be able to recommend retaking drivers test for people they pull over. esp for stupid things like signaling,weaving about other dangerous habits.
 
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VincentHill
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posted December 21, 2002 01:45 PM
Dave, as usual thought Provoking. Two things about this. #1, the dealer should have sold the guy the bike, because if he did not, someone else would. #2, The dealer should also have asked if he know how to ride and if the answer is what we all know it is, then he should have had him come back and take a lesson or two with a smaller bike. My First riding / training came from a Triumph, BSA, Aerial, Parillia dealer on a TT Course during a race!
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