ZHooligan
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posted December 12, 2002 12:26 AM
MUZZY Stacks have arrived
UPS came yesterday. I been gone a couple of days! They brought the new stacks and a repack kit for Muzzy can. Plan on giving Necromancer the Muzzy exhaust for Christmas. The stacks (short ones for modified engines) look first class. Everything is there. O-rings and bolts. I should have them installed by tomorrow night. We shall see how they fit and I will let you all know.
  
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TurboBlew
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posted December 12, 2002 04:20 AM
I assume the Muzzys come with bolts? What type? Allens or hex heads?
Do you have Ti rotor bolts on your bike?
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swft
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posted December 12, 2002 04:20 AM
The only thing ZH is missing is a Ti axle! 
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beansbaxter
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posted December 12, 2002 11:33 AM
ZH has the Titanium 12
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted December 12, 2002 12:18 PM
ZH has the Ti 12, and lots more money than me.....lol I will have to stick with steel and plastic
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RAC4IT
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Bergie
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posted December 12, 2002 12:42 PM
you shouldn't install them until you get to the dyno, make a baseline of 2 or three pulls, then install them to compare.
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VincentHill
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posted December 12, 2002 01:11 PM
Apples to Apples like Bergie says. Go to the Dyno with your ram air cover and tank cover already removedand then you can make switches quickly!
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Megabyte
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posted December 12, 2002 04:37 PM
Everytime I think I know when I'll have enough money set aside for my big bore, another must have comes along....  It would be helpful to see a dyno comparision of before and after.
quote:
UPS came yesterday. I been gone a couple of days! They brought the new stacks and a repack kit for Muzzy can. Plan on giving Necromancer the Muzzy exhaust for Christmas. The stacks (short ones for modified engines) look first class. Everything is there. O-rings and bolts. I should have them installed by tomorrow night. We shall see how they fit and I will let you all know.
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ZHooligan
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posted December 12, 2002 06:05 PM
Bergie, I have a 194 for documented dyno runs on my 12 besides untold hours of mapping. That is on the stock motor, a 1270 and a 1361. I believe I have pretty good info.
I installed the stacks today. First I removed my Bear Stacks. The Muzzy stacks are shorter as indicated by Muzzy's info for modified engines. The Muzzy stacks are an exact fit. The flanges are squared off just enough to allow the stacks to be installed side by side. They fir snug to the bottom of the air box and make good seal. My Bear stacks on my stroker motor at least stuck up in the air box and would not seal without stacking o-rings to make up the space. The Muzzy stacks fit.
The Muzzy stacks do come with allen bolts. They are in my opinion to short. You have to use longer bolts to pull the stacks down into the throttlebodies. After they are completely bottom and tight with the longer bolts you can then remove bolts one at a time and install the bolts supplied. Muzzy could do us a favor by supplying longer 1/4 inch / 5 mm longerbolts.
It will be next week or the week after before I do any dyno work. If there is any maked improvement I will let you all know. I will be interested to see if there is a torque difference especially down low.
Overall, at least at this point the Muzzy stacks appear to be a bettere fit and a bit more engineered then the bear stacks. As I stated in a previous post I would expect this, as in this case Muzzy has had a chance to look at what else has been done instead of being the first guy out of the chute.
Don
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VincentHill
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posted December 12, 2002 07:33 PM
Measure the Bolts. My Guess is that they are 22mm! When down, they offer a perfect fit, because the bar with the nuts is then flush with the underside of the air Box. For ease, use 25 mm for perfection use them the way you did.
My thought about the fit between the airbox and the bottom of the Bear stacks is engine location! If you have ever had your engine out of the bike, depending on how you hung it when bolting it back in the bike could make the FI- 2 or 3 mm closer or farther away. Mine set about 1/8" off of the box and snuged up perfectly! To be honest, I thought that there would be more problems in this area for everyone!
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ZHooligan
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posted December 12, 2002 08:08 PM
You very well could be right Vincent. My engine has been out 4 times!
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krexken
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posted December 13, 2002 12:26 AM
Makes me wonder how they'd fit an engine that doesn't have a 2mm block spacer like ZH's? I'd think that would affect the fit.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted December 13, 2002 02:20 AM
keep us posted ZH still compiling my have to have list....just need to kno wif these stacks need to get added to the list...
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ZHooligan
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posted December 13, 2002 01:05 PM
There is some room for adjustment since the throttle body boots if you will are rubber.
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moodybluezx12r
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posted December 13, 2002 02:00 PM
ZHooligan...lets us know what type of improvement you get...
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VincentHill
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posted December 13, 2002 08:31 PM
ZH, two things, #1, I have "Not" Had my engine out and I have a "Perfect" fit and with "ALL" of the other stacks that have been sold, "No" one has reported on the Boards, to me or anyone else I know of about then being too long! Since they are the "Exact" length of the Rubber Boot (Compressed), my thought is that your new stacks "MUST" be shorter between the underside of the stack and the end of the stack where it fits against the Throttle Body!
To me, this means that for people that have more distance between the air box and the Throttle body (read stock production clearance) will / could end up with a small "GAP" between the end of the stack and the inside edge of the throttle body? "Any" Gap can be a cause unwanted turbulence!
#2, I saw your analogy about exhaust systems. There is one (1) difference here, No where did I ever see Hindle, Yoshimura, Ti-Force, Akrapovic, Micron, or any of the other pipe makers ever say that they were not able to Quantify any performance benefit from the other person's product! BUT, there is a similarity here because They all took what they saw, tested it, tried different things and came out with their own product as was done here. We also have seen that some pipe makers have even improved on their own design and have gone from the middle of the pack in performance to the front. I think we are now seeing some of this here! This is just my observation.
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ZHooligan
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posted December 14, 2002 12:07 AM
I have no allegence or ties to any of the manufactures. I only report what I find and know.
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VincentHill
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posted December 14, 2002 06:22 AM
quote:
I have no allegence or ties to any of the manufactures. I only report what I find and know.
That is true and I do not think you have a "Bias"!
Like with everything I do (Working on a Bike or Car and talking or Writing), I think about it over night and see if I I left anything out or made any mistakes. Here is what I did not say.
In Canada, they also have a Road Race Series! In Canada, the Organization is the CMA (Canadian Motorcycle Association, Like our AMA) In Canada, the "FACTORY" Bikes all Use Hindle, like the Factory bikes used to run Muzzy here in the US. When Kawasaki Canada, receives the first Bikes, they are sent to "Hindle" So he can get a Head Start for their Racing Season, Just Like Kawasaki USA must have sent some of their first Bikes to Muzzy when they first Arrived.
So in essence, your statement that "Since Muzzy got the first ZX12R and he made the first exhaust", analogy just may not be true? (I understand what you were getting at, but since we are talking about the "Same" person both times, I felt this needed to be added!) I am done! 
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ZHooligan
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posted December 14, 2002 10:12 PM
Vincent... Are you saying that Hindle put their pipe out for the 12 at the same time as Muzzy did? I don't beleive that is corect. Muzzy's pipe wa out for a year if not 2 before Hindle marketed their step pipe. As for the factory pipes in Canada being Hindls I am not certain how it works for Kawasaki and in Canada. I can say that for Honda the factory builds their pipes and people like Jardeen pay an enormous amount of money to put their name on them. Hindle makes good stuff and they are nice people.
If I were to take the situation with the stacks and apply it to other accessories I would assume that Diamond chain would be the only chain available, one manufacture would exist for sprockets, onviously only one windscreen manufacture would be around, we would all be burning or using Standard oil for motor oil, and I guess we would be riding harleys, etc. The free market prevails.
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GG
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posted December 15, 2002 04:24 AM
 Edited By: GG on 15 Dec 2002 04:25
quote:
......I can say that for Honda the factory builds their pipes and people like Jardeen pay an enormous amount of money to put their name on them.....
So is that why Nicky Haydens exhaust looks like an Akrapovic
with a Jardine sticker on it?
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VincentHill
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posted December 15, 2002 08:35 AM
Not a problem with free market! Hindle Built a 4-2-1 a very long time ago like Muzzy did. The Step Tube is the latest improvement of what they built in 1999. If you look at their web site, the Step Tube is not even mentioned, so there was another pipe long before this current one.
Also nothing to do with anyone even copying someone else, it was and is the less than Stellar reviews I was and am referring to. Sort of like a Busa Owner bad talking a ZX12R owner about the back Bone Frame and then one day, you see their bike with a Back Bone Frame and they are now toutting the frame. Not exactly the same, but I got the same sort of feeling.
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swft
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posted December 15, 2002 10:57 AM
Edited By: swft on 15 Dec 2002 11:01
You know, the only pipe I know of that is really close to the factory pipe is the TiForce. Like the factory exhaust, it's a 4-2 all the way back to the muffler, not a 4-2-1. I think this helps preserve the ECU muddle it's way through fuel delivery. I know that both Zhooligan's and my 12 certainly had much better low end throttle response. It was a real delight to be able to idle around in any gear, with instant pickup, no surging and spot on delivery.
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VincentHill
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posted December 15, 2002 03:01 PM
I saw that Pipe on the Euro / World SuperBikes, then on EBozs Bike (Akrapovic), Then I saw it disappear? My thinking was that they intentionally sacraficed peak power for more tractor like bottom end like the "V" Twins which are 250CC Bigger. The ZX12 does not have that size disavantage! (100cc on 1 bike at worse  )
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ZHooligan
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posted December 15, 2002 05:05 PM
I don't know of any sacrifice on the top in my case at least. My TiForce makes the same top end power as any of the other pipes and runs better on the bottom. In a perfect world I would have the TiForce pipe with an Akro Carbon Can!
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