redelk
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posted December 11, 2002 12:48 AM
Not "Bike Related" - 4X4 tire question HELP!
I have a serious 4x4 truck tire size question.
Because the snow/sleet down here in Arkansas is so "wet" (unlike a "dry", powdery snow), regular "All Terrain" tires tend to quickly pack up with snow or ice, like a passenger car tire. To solve that problem, I've always ran "mud" tires on the company's 4X4s.
The old Chevy had 16.5" wheels and I personally preferred Bridgestone's Dueler M/T. I also switched from the OEM 265/70 to a 285/70. I always got great mileage and they had the best wet pavement traction I had ever experienced with this type of tire. Needless to say, when the roads were covered with ice and snow, I had no problem going ANYWHERE I wanted to.
Here's the problem. The new truck has 17"x8" wheels. After a visit to my local Firestone dealer, I found out that Bridgestone doesn't offer the Dueler M/T in a 17". Neither does Firestone's Destination M/T or Dayton's Daytona Stag XT (Lug).
My choices are real limited with the major brands and I really don't want to slap on something like "Super Swampers" for daily in town driving. Even if there was a "off brand" that would meet my needs, the company has restricted me to "major brand names" only.
To make matters worse, I don't want to replace the current 265/70 with the same size and there's ABSOLUTELY no way I can afford new wheels. The company will spring for the tires right now (since the weather's getting crappy), but theres no way they will pay somewhere around $800 to $1000 (or more) for new wheels.
Actually, I really would like to go a little bigger then a 285/70. The 265/70 is close to 32" tall and the 285 is around 33". I was thinking about something like a LT305/70R17 or a 35x12.5R17LT/D.
Goodyear has a Wrangler MT/R in the LT305/70. The tread isn't as widely spaced as the other makes of mud tires, but it will fit on my 17x8 wheels (recommended for 8.0" to 9.5"). The tire is 34" tall and the section width is 12".
BF Goodrich has a Mud-Terrain T/A KM that comes in a 35x12.5R17LT. The tread pattern is much closer to what I'm looking for, but my past experiences with BFG (10+ years ago) is that their wet pavement traction sucks and wear isn't that great either.
I'd like to get the BFG and run them until Bridgestone comes out with a Dueler M/T in a 17". Here's the trick, the BFG Mud-Terrain T/A KM 35x12.5 calls for a wheel width of 8.5" to 10". The closest one they have that will go on a 8" rim is a 285/70 and I want something just a little bigger. If you saw the saw the first pics of the truck, you'd agree that "clearance" will NOT be a problem with what ever I put on.
Soooooooooo....
The question is, should I put the Mud-Terrain T/A KM 35x12.5 tires on my 8" rims or not? BFG implies that it will make my footprint smaller (12.1 vs. 12.5), but the tire is over 3" taller then my current 265/70s.
I really do need an answer on this since will be getting the new tires within a week or so.
I found the at an off road website and it appears to be saying that it should be a problem. Do you agree or disagree and why?
The tire manufacturer will publish guidelines for what rim width should be used with which tire. In general 7" rims will comfortably work with tires up to 10.5" wide, 8" wide rims work for 9.5" up to 12.5" wide tires and 10" wide rims are used for 12.5" and wider (up to about 15" wide).
Many popular rim styles may not be available in widths wider than 8" and rims wider than 10" are much more difficult to find and will generally command a premium price.
Rim width relative to the tire's section width has an effect on bead retention when aired down, and on the overall tire profile. In general a narrower wheel (from within the manufacturers guidelines) will result in a more rounded profile with a slightly smaller footprint but with a somewhat greater degree of protection for the wheel.
Narrower wheels also may retain the bead marginally better when aired down than will a wider wheels. Wider wheels provide a flatter tire profile and wider footprint. Since the rim is wider it will not be as protected from the rocks as would a narrower wheel with the same tire (due to the bulge of the tire).
The tire carcass will exert less pressure on the wider width bead when aired down and a wider wheel may thus be marginally more likely to lose a bead when pressures are low. Wider wheels, with less sidewall bulge, may reduce the rubbing of large tires on the springs at full turn.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
   
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Ninjaman12R
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posted December 11, 2002 07:07 AM
Hmmm......
Sherm,
I wish I could help you out bro, but I know very little about "mud tires".
You appear to have done your homework though. (typical redelk style  ) I'm sure whatever you choose to go with will work nicely for you. Good luck...........
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted December 11, 2002 07:13 AM
me too sorry bubba......
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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redelk
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posted December 11, 2002 07:24 AM
As soon as we get a sunny day (and I get the time), I'll take some more pics of what we've done to the new truck. The "Red Elk stripes, 55w back up lights, Leer XQ100 shell and the BAD MF'er grill/brush guard are already on. The KC 130w slimlites for the front should be in this week.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Ninjaman12R
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posted December 11, 2002 07:32 AM
Damn.....
quote:
As soon as we get a sunny day (and I get the time), I'll take some more pics of what we've done to the new truck. The "Red Elk stripes, 55w back up lights, Leer XQ100 shell and the BAD MF'er grill/brush guard are already on. The KC 130w slimlites for the front should be in this week.
Sounds like an "assault" vehicle.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
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posted December 11, 2002 08:01 AM
 Edited By: DaveInDaytona on 11 Dec 2002 08:03
Hey Red,
My 2000 Off Road came with the 17" rims and a Goodyear GSA's. I thought these tires were the best. Good on road in the wet which is a big consideration and off road in the sand (no jokes please). They ran quiet in the dry too. It looks like in 2003 they are using the AT/S. I'm not sure how much mud you actually run in but if you're like most 4x4 owners (and I doubt you fit into any "normal" category) you probably spend a small percentage of your life bogging through creek bottoms. Well as for the snow I'd still go that way too because I've had better luck with less aggressive tires in the snow than the mudders. Well you're now going to say what does a boy in Florida know about driving in snow, and I'd reply bite me redneck I've logged a lot of snow miles.
Back home in sunny FLA
If it was me I'd look at the GSA http://www.goodyeartires.com/catalog/products/WRLGSA.html and they come in about any 17" size you would want. But that's just my opinion.
Damn I miss that truck..........................
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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kawachan
Pro
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posted December 11, 2002 09:03 AM
Sherm, I've got our tire man on it right now. He'll call me in a bit.
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RED NINJAS RULE!!
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OZZY
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posted December 12, 2002 05:07 AM
Here in eastern Washinton State we get the full meal deal with the snow conditions. Our winter temps vary greatly and therfore the road conditions follow.
BUT most of the time the snow covered roads are near the melting point if they aren't compact snow turning to ice. We receive heavy wet snow falls just as often as the dry powder type.
Over the years I have tried many different types of tread design, open , closed, bald, steel cord showing,all season, hiway tread, winter tread, etc.
What I have found to be the best tire for OUR conditions is a WINTER tire. A tire made with rubber compounds designed for winter conditions. Also a tire with many edges in the tread will out perform a tire with less edges. On ice and compack snow it doesnt matter whether a tire is siped from the factory, or you have them siped . It is the number of edges wiping away the layer of water on the snow/ice.
All of these edges also load up with sand and provide additional traction. An open tread with adequate spacing between major tread blocks works well in deeper or heavier snow, as long as the previous mentioned criteria are also present in the design.
A "mud" tire isnt worth $.02 around here in the winter. In virgin snow they work fine, but once it is tracked out, they become skates. IF they work decent on the pack, it is because they were siped.
I had Goodyear M/T's on my truck when it was new and they were a good tire for all around use. I now have Arnold Palmer tires, Cooper Discoverer H/T and they are far superior to the Goodyear MT's,and 2 different tread pattern UniRoyal Laredo's. The UniRoyal Laredo Lug tires I have are studded. They do not provide the traction that the Coopers do in ANY condition. Why?? To hard of a compound, and no siping. Just smooth hard blocks of rubber with lots of open area in between. They are mounted on rims and set in the storage shed.
My theory on snow and traction: Snow is a crystal structure. Each crystal has a traction co effeficient. Get enough of the crystals to bond together and there will be enough traction to propel you forward. One way to get enough of this bonding is with many lines of crystals bonding together. A tire with many blocks of tread creates many lines of bonding crystals. This bonding is created by pressure. The less ground pressure a tire creates, the less efficient this bonding becomes. There is a fine balance between adaquate ground presssure, and the number of lines of bonding . Find this right balance and along with the correct rubber compound you have a good snow tire that works in dam near all snow conditions.
Wet ice is a total other story, just put on the cross bar reinforced chains, or stay home 
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"It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses......HIT IT!"
Blues Bros.
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redelk
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posted December 12, 2002 08:27 AM
Very interesting and seemingly vailid points, OZZY. As we continue to add on the accessories and the truck eeks ever closer to the 7000 lbs. mark (easily passed with a full 35 gal. tank and just my fat ass in the cab), the weight aspect seems fairly easily addressed (*chuckle*).
Here's the kicker though, even with it's now 22' length, "the company's" truck does make the occasional trips into the woods. Though it probably does't rain here as much as it does in Washington (do you guys EVER have a day it doesn't rain?), our "back roads" get rather muddy and all the "Billy Bobs" with their Super Swamper 44's don't help matters when they rut out even the smoothest of dirt roads. It's almost as if every puddle they see results in a... "Hey, hold my beer and watch this!".
Since we don't have multiple sets of wheels and tires to swap out as weather or "personal activites" dictate, compormises have to be made. In the tire's life time, it will likely spend more time on some muddy trail then it will in the snow.
Also, in Arkansas, it seems that 2" of snow paralizes the city, cleans out the grocery stores and nobody goes anywhere. With an almost a nonexsistant amount of winter equiptment posessed by our delightful highway department and nothing by the city or county, almost all the roads are either "virgin" or totally cleared in condition. There's very rarly an "inbetween". I have also read where narrower tires far much better in snowy conditions and have seen where the husband's "deer camp" jeep is stuck in the garage while the wife's Izusu Rodeo gets around just fine.
This is the pitfalls of being both a daily driver, encountering a varity of enviroments and have just one set of wheels to have a set of tires on that last between 30 to 40K miles. Serious compromises must be made. Since I've been "forced" to pilot the company's 4x4s since 1980, the MT type tires seem to fit this bill.
That's just me though. I'm still very open to and value the experienced opinions of those like Dave's and yourself, finding them well worth considering. Thanks!
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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bagster
Zone Head
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posted December 12, 2002 08:34 AM
I agree with your traction theory OZZY.
I am from the Buffalo NY area and have seen my fair share of snow and ice.
These Michelin Alpin tires work wonders on my Toyota in the nasty conditions here.
http://michelinman.com/catalog/tires/4x4alpin.html#
The only problem with them is that they make a real high pitched whine when you hit plain WET pavement.
Those sipes doing their job I imagine.
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OZZY
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posted December 12, 2002 10:36 AM
Red, a set of oem steel wheels for the winter tires is what I use. Bought them from a private party for $120 for the 4 of them with rims, caps and nuts. There must be a bazillion of those Dodges out there. Keep an eye open and you can score a set of wheels for those "Gumbo Mudders"!
Speaking of clay, about 5 miles south of me on Hiway 27 is a town named Mica. Home of mica peak.com, and of a flat track racer you may have heard of- Joey Kopp. What does all this have to do with clay you are now thinking. Well not anything directly, except that the town of Mica has only one business , a brick factory. There is a hi quality clay that makes great bricks quarried there. South of Mica almost to Lewiston ID, the clay, black dirt, or mix of, is the norm for the back roads.
This is the shit that when wet, each step in it makes your shoe grow about an inch in every direction. The kinda crap that wont come off for nothing, and when you are a kid got you into untold troubles with your mother for tracking it onto her what were clean floors,LOL.
A MT designated tire is the only thing that works well on those roads during the wet season. And believe me, when we were in high school we tried to prove that bald wide ovals would make it down those roads. We were stuck many times where we had to go for a farmers crawler, or a 4x4 pickup with real tires to get us out I cant even begin to count them all. Guess we were real slow learners, LOL.
Hope you enjoy the company truck, Merry Christmas
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"It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses......HIT IT!"
Blues Bros.
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