Megabyte
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posted October 23, 2002 12:42 PM
Turbo or Big Bore ?
300 HP Turbo for '6k installed or 200 hp 1361 Big Bore + parts for '5k installed? The Turbo is a clear winner on HP, but what other issues should I be looking at? Reliability, Street& Track handling. I read a post on another board by a guy with a Turbo on his GSXR 1k who claimed the bike handled great.
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your car is slow
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Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted October 23, 2002 12:54 PM
uh...turbo
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted October 23, 2002 07:36 PM
well duh...BOTH!!!
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ZHooligan
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posted October 24, 2002 12:00 AM
The question is simple. Do you want to ride the bike or work on it? Turbos are awesome. They provide tons of power and in most cases are similar to a Russian Tank. Operate them for a few hours and work on them for a few days. If you are looking to tinker the turbo is an answer.
Most Turbo bikes are project machines. Conversation pieces etc. And yes it would be nice to have a 1361 turbo, but of course you would need to neuter the 1361 by putting in very low compression pistons so whats the point!
It really gets down to what you intend to do with the bike. If you are looking for 150 mph wheelies then the turbo isn't a bad alternative for the few days you will get to ride it. If you after a record at Bonneville a Turbo might get you close. But in the long run you had better have a lot of green to throw away. Beleive me I know. Been there done that and my 1361 with an occasional shot of the juice is a lot more fun.
The other tid bit is insurance. Turbo means no insurance. If you do get it you will have to lie and take your chances. Try hiding the turbo from the adjuster.
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beansbaxter
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posted October 24, 2002 11:21 AM
I have never done either to be honest, but if I was given the option, I would do the bore kit.
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harryzx-12
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posted October 24, 2002 01:02 PM
TURBO!!
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mrfast
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posted October 24, 2002 06:02 PM
A properly designed turbo with reasonable boost levels will be more reliable than a "built" motor.HP in this safe boost range should be around 240-250, slightly higher with an intercooler.Muzzys has been promising a street kit for quite some time and I am sure it will be a quality product when finished.I couldnt wait so I went with the 1270 and love it,no problems so far (6500 miles on kit).
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TurboBlew
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posted October 24, 2002 07:14 PM
The Muzzys or Velocity kit seem to be the kits to "have" right now. Neither is available though...lol 
I guess someone could "settle" on an MCXpress for now if they wanted.
I wouldnt consider anything else.
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Megabyte
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posted October 24, 2002 08:56 PM
I talked to George @ Seattle Cycle. He's been into cart racing and has been putting turbos on motorcycle engines for years. George swears that a properly installed turbo system will actually increase engine life because of the lower compression. I've been trying to get an ETA on Muzzy's Turbo system for months. Their last response indicated that they had to redo the design because of fairing changes in the 02 bike.
Thanks for all the good input
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beansbaxter
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posted October 24, 2002 10:49 PM
Is that true about a turbo actually increasing engine life?
Does that go for just motorcycles, or is that true in cars as well?
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ZHooligan
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posted October 25, 2002 08:06 AM
I am always amused at comments about a turbo extending the engine life. This is similar to the statement that volvos are the best cars because they last so long.
Certainly lowering the compression lowers the stress on the engine in a perfect world. That of course being only beneficial if you were not going to turbo the engine. The reason a turbo bike seems to live longer is because it is no longer an everyday rider. It becomes a living breathing project. That is doded on, stroked, fondled, maintained etc. to death until it finally does expire. Much like the race horse. It is a beautiful, powerful animal that performs heads above other horses. It also requires a full time vet, trainer and staff takiong care of it.
Volvo claim this to last nearly forever. And in away they do. The typical Volvo owner is a pperson that completes all of the maintenance on their car religiously. They do every service, replace every part ahead of time, change the oil, brake fluid, coolant etc without fail. In most cases part of owning a volvo is having more miles on it then any of the other volvo owners. Kind of like all of us searching for horsepower, better looks etc. The volvo owner searches for longevity and pays the price. Having owned various automotive repair facilities over the years I have made a point to track this phenomenon. The average Volvo Owner will spend as much money buying and maintaining their car to get 300,000 miles as they would have spent buying 2 or 3 brand new japanese cars. And the japanese cars would still be going! It is a matter of taste. And I am aware of the stories from all of the volvo drivers. They tell the same stories to their mechanics! My daughter in med school is also very thankful!
If turbos are so good and work so well and are actually easier on the engine etc. then why is it that the manufactures don't put them on. And why is it that the car manufactures have stopped putting a turbo on everything they can? Pretty simple, it's called warranty. For the most part, Turbo cars spend their life in the shop. So if you are considering a turbo for your bike you need to be mindful of this.
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TurboBlew
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posted October 25, 2002 09:42 AM
Now that Zhooligan has "scared off" potential turbo customers...lol
I would say owning a turbobike should be something thats worked up to. In otherwords, be very comfortable maintaining your motorcycle. Be comfortable turning wrenches. Always have some type of "mentor" or "guide" when tackling a turbo project. It takes lots of patience to own one.
Ive made some mistakes over the years, like running lean, spinning rods, holing pistons. Im amazed I ever got to ride the thing...lol I will admit, its not for everyone. But it is fun while it lasts...hehe.
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ZHooligan
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posted October 25, 2002 01:12 PM
Your spot on on what you are saying Turbo. I beleive I posted awhile back that if you can aford one and it is not your primary ride a turbo bike is a blast. Done right it is like getting to take a sidewinder missle for a ride!
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Megabyte
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posted October 25, 2002 02:30 PM
All I want for Xmas is to be blasted off a carrier deck in a f-18. That's not asking too much is it? In the mean time, I'll have to settle for my 12. I apreciate all the input. I've been doing some research on the 1361, and am slowly coming to the conclusion that a 1270 might be more practical and reliable ???????
quote:
Your spot on on what you are saying Turbo. I beleive I posted awhile back that if you can aford one and it is not your primary ride a turbo bike is a blast. Done right it is like getting to take a sidewinder missle for a ride!
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entropy
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posted October 25, 2002 04:37 PM
quote:
...I've been doing some research on the 1361, and am slowly coming to the conclusion that a 1270 might be more practical and reliable ???????
If by practical you me cheaper to buy the kit and install, then yep the 1270 is that.
But the 1270 more reliable???? huh??? I don't think so. They are equally reliable, unless your research has come up with something I haven't heard and I have been in touch with a slew of 1270 AND 1361 owners since I started street riding and 1/4 mile-ing my 1361 a year ago.
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ra12r
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posted October 25, 2002 07:27 PM
Zhooligan unless you wish to become KCadby's "X" friend on this board, I would suggest that you start embrasing turbo's cause Muzzy's is going to be selling them!!! Besides, on this thread you are starting to sound like me, i don't hear the "Romantic Idealism"!!! lololol
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Megabyte
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posted October 25, 2002 08:54 PM
 Edited By: Megabyte on 25 Oct 2002 21:57
I read this on the Labusas.org site
"I wouldn't personally put a stroker crank in any motor, and I don't like
welded-up cranks in general. Stroker cranks increase mean piston speed, they also make the piston rock more, and push a wider angle against the wrist pin and crank pin. Rev ceilings drop, making it look more torquey than it is, aided by the comparative lack of valve area. "
It makes sense to me. I find it hard to believe that a stroked and welded crank is as strong as stock.
But the 1270 more reliable???? huh??? I don't think so. They are equally reliable, unless your research has come up with something I haven't heard and I have been in touch with a slew of 1270 AND 1361 owners since I started street riding and 1/4 mile-ing my 1361 a year ago.
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ZHooligan
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posted October 25, 2002 09:44 PM
I guess it comes down to opinions! But I have seen very little failure on the part of the 1270 or 1361. The only failures I have seen were both 1270's. The comment about welded cranks is a good sales pitch. I have yet to have a welded crank break, come apart or fail period. I have been running welded stroker cranks in my bikes for 20 years now. I have had engines come apart in nuclear proportions with massive valve, piston, rod and other type failures. The welded cranks have survived and lived to be used again. Mike Velasco's crank guy has been the man building my cranks for years and I have had zero issues.
ra12r....... I just tell it like I see it. And in my case I have spent a fortune in time and money building all types of motorcycles. I have tried pretty much every type of performance part or piece on pretty much everything over the years. My 1380 XX Velasco built for me a few years back was a project bike of quantum proportions. Both American Honda and Japan shipped one off unobtanium works parts and pieces to help us build the monster.
I have only one real vice and that is motorcycles! Unlike Fish I don't have chickens or any other farm animals!!!
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sagot
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posted October 25, 2002 11:13 PM
Welded? Who the hell uses pressed together cranks anymore on a four stroke??
Almost a question.
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sagot
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posted October 25, 2002 11:13 PM
Welded? Who the hell uses pressed together cranks anymore on a four stroke??
Almost a question.
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sagot
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posted October 25, 2002 11:17 PM
Welded? Who the hell uses pressed together cranks anymore on a four stroke??
Almost a question.
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zxlnt
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posted October 26, 2002 06:32 AM
The GS and KZ series engines have press together cranks with roller bottom ends. Of course everyone welds them or puts billet cranks in 'em..
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mrfast
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posted October 26, 2002 06:41 AM
FYI,talked to Dave at Muzzys and they now build a street 1317? kit with a billet block,should be around 205HP,probably a little less torque than the stroker.Just an option for you guys afraid of welded stroked cranks.I will have to partially disagree with Mr Hooligan on the turbo issue,granted,any time large amounts of horsepower is added,engine loads will increase and accelerate wear and maintenance becomes even more important.The key in any high performance engine is controlling detonation.I have experience with mid 7 second nitrous dragbikes to kz,s and bandits with draw through systems and most recently a Vulcan 1500 with a blow through carb system.The only times I have damaged the street bikes is running too much boost with pump gas(twisted cranks,head gaskets etc.)The Vulcan has 10000 hard miles with 7psi of boost and totally stock motor with no problems thus far.We havent showed the customer how to turn up the boost!In my opinion,a turbo streetbike with 200+hp is a freegin blast!!!I think I have just talked myself into another turbo--FOR SALE 1270 kit,Muzzy exhaust--just kidding!!
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kawachan
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posted October 26, 2002 07:26 AM
quote:
The comment about welded cranks is a good sales pitch. I have yet to have a welded crank break, come apart or fail period. I have been running welded stroker cranks in my bikes for 20 years now. I have had engines come apart in nuclear proportions with massive valve, piston, rod and other type failures. The welded cranks have survived and lived to be used again. quote:
My mechanic had his stroked 11 crank break. That is why I opted for the 1270 since I couldn't afford the billet crank yet.
It is just a fact of life. Have you ever seen the way they weld up a crank and then have to PRESS it back flat again?? That is undue stress on the crank, which will "sometime" in the future come to haunt you (or the next owner at least)
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krexken
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posted October 26, 2002 07:52 AM
Press it back flat again? They weld up the outside of the journal and then regrind it off-center to gain the added stroke. I don't think the 11s crank were built or designed with the same hp levels in mind as the 12s. I've heard of lots of weldup 11 cranks breaking but never a 12. Not yet anyway.
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