smokehouse4444
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posted March 23, 2009 12:22 PM
Your points are well made and taken worm, and I really do wish HD would come out with something competitive. The Buell's are pretty cool and have stepped it up. Of course HD made him go solo originally. But to compare that XR1200 to even a 10 yr old Japanese sportbike with anywhere near equal riders is just folly. My old '99 XX Blackbird would have absolutely destroyed that bike. To make matters worse, my old '84 900 Ninja would have destroyed it as well. Harleys primary fan-base has a hissy fit if they even think about something more sporty. Look at the initial reaction to the V-Rod.
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worm~hole
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posted March 23, 2009 01:46 PM
 Edited By: worm~hole on 23 Mar 2009 22:08
quote:
I dunno, when groups of us knee drag the Cheroholla Skyway which consists of long sweepers, or the Tail of the Dragon which is a lot of tight switchbacks, the buells don't perform like the rest with decent riders.
And of course we see them at track days.
Personally I like the bikes, especially the last couple of years but we'd be fantasizing to say they perform anywhere close to duc twins or jap inline bikes.
....it could be that the buyers of Buells are from the HD cruiser fan-base that want to try out something sporty from an HD engine-based bike and haven't acclimated to riding "sprtbikes"...it could be that with the Buell's ample lean angles, knee dragging is not needed to go fast around sweepers or in tight hairpins....it could be that you haven't come across a rider who rides a Buell well...it could be that Buells are indeed POSs (though from what i've read and gleaned from my personal test ride its not)....it could be it could it could be, but you get the idea...
...it'd be interesting to see a back-to-back comparo of one expert rider on different v-twin sportbikes over the same street and track venues....I'm going to guess that the XBs and 1125s will be close to the Ducs and Aprilias...closer than some enthusiastic riders think they themselves are to the expert riders when they're on the same bikes... 
...anyways...back on topic...I think the HD XR1200 is a cool street bike for the street when ridden by street riders like me...it just needs the mods I suggested and it'd be cooler in my book  ....now I just gotta got test ride one in the near future to help validate my street riding opinions 
...the go really really really fast guys looking for synergistic nirvana between man and bike will beg to differ I'm sure
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SteveWFL
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posted March 23, 2009 02:20 PM
for worm<----the typical Harley comparison and it happens to be of the topic bike:
quote:
My interest was up. I found a motorcycle mag's article when comparing to a 1100 CC Duc open bike in this Harley's class and went straight to the "conclusion":
By Pete Brissette and Kevin Duke, Feb. 06, 2009, Photography by Alfonse Palaima, Video by Alfonse Palaima
Americans and Italians speak different languages, and this carries over to the design languages of motorcycle manufacturers. Ducati’s rich sporting heritage is evident in the Monster 1100’s more exuberant personality. Its lighter weight, shorter wheelbase and revvier motor give it an edge in strict performance terms.
On the other hand, Harley’s XR1200 brings a fresh take on the naked roadster. Its success lies in the fact that it attracts sport riders and Harley faithful in equal measures. Its dirt-track inspiration resonates with a huge cross-section of two-wheel enthusiasts, and this broadband appeal and friendly nature places the XR in an enviable position during normal city/commuter use. It’s also about $1200 less than the swanky Italian.
Still, although it’s the highest-performance H-D ever offered for mass consumption (sorry, the ill-fated and semi-street-legal VR1000 doesn’t count), the XR1200’s rangier wheelbase and extra poundage means that – given equal riders – the XR can’t hang with the more agile and lively Monster down a twisty mountain road.
Some say potato-potato; some say patata.
http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/ducati-monster-1100-vs-harleydavidson-xr1200-review-87928.html
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worm~hole
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posted March 23, 2009 02:36 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 23 Mar 2009 23:11
quote:
for worm<----the typical Harley comparison and it happens to be of the topic bike:
quote:
My interest was up. I found a motorcycle mag's article when comparing to a 1100 CC Duc open bike in this Harley's class and went straight to the "conclusion":
By Pete Brissette and Kevin Duke, Feb. 06, 2009, Photography by Alfonse Palaima, Video by Alfonse Palaima
Americans and Italians speak different languages, and this carries over to the design languages of motorcycle manufacturers. Ducati’s rich sporting heritage is evident in the Monster 1100’s more exuberant personality. Its lighter weight, shorter wheelbase and revvier motor give it an edge in strict performance terms.
On the other hand, Harley’s XR1200 brings a fresh take on the naked roadster. Its success lies in the fact that it attracts sport riders and Harley faithful in equal measures. Its dirt-track inspiration resonates with a huge cross-section of two-wheel enthusiasts, and this broadband appeal and friendly nature places the XR in an enviable position during normal city/commuter use. It’s also about $1200 less than the swanky Italian.
Still, although it’s the highest-performance H-D ever offered for mass consumption (sorry, the ill-fated and semi-street-legal VR1000 doesn’t count), the XR1200’s rangier wheelbase and extra poundage means that – given equal riders – the XR can’t hang with the more agile and lively Monster down a twisty mountain road.
Some say potato-potato; some say patata.
http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/ducati-monster-1100-vs-harleydavidson-xr1200-review-87928.html
...as an anology and as far as the VR1000s are concerned, lets not forget that the earlier Corvettes were also thought of by many to be a POS back in the day, but look at it NOW....time, technoogy, effort and proper marketing marches forward for many things..even Erik himself has said that marketing the Buell brand has been weak...
...btw I'm not disparraging Erik Buell's early, past, and present efforts....I give the man huge props for accomplishing what he and for the past 25 years or so...when I first read his mission statement regarding the design and purpose of his street bikes, and its results, I immediately understood and agreed with what he was doing...even when he went with a water-cooled motor, the gist is always the same (so far): sensible ergos and adequate hp/tq for street riding in a bike with charater...sorry, but the same can't be said for the IL4 sportbikes...and I've had my share of IL4 sportbikes...to each his own, yes?
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K Bryant
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posted March 23, 2009 04:36 PM
Well..... Did anyone happen to see what a Buell did to the other "factory" bikes at Fontana this weekend ?......
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mongo
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posted March 23, 2009 06:26 PM
It's a bitch bike!
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Gabe
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posted March 23, 2009 06:59 PM
Hey, I want to thank all of you Bikelanders for your posts and participation...I had a good time riding the XR1200 and I think anybody else who likes a solid, satisfying, competant bike would as well. If you want to compare it to a Japanese sportbike, you're really missing the point. It's like comparing a sport-edition F150 pickup to a VW Golf. Totally different vehicles for different customers and different purposes.
Cheers and thanks for the warm welcome!
Gabe
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worm~hole
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posted March 24, 2009 12:48 AM
quote:
Well..... Did anyone happen to see what a Buell did to the other "factory" bikes at Fontana this weekend ?......
yup
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worm~hole
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posted March 24, 2009 12:55 AM
quote:
quote:
for worm<----the typical Harley comparison and it happens to be of the topic bike:
quote:
My interest was up. I found a motorcycle mag's article when comparing to a 1100 CC Duc open bike in this Harley's class and went straight to the "conclusion":
By Pete Brissette and Kevin Duke, Feb. 06, 2009, Photography by Alfonse Palaima, Video by Alfonse Palaima
Americans and Italians speak different languages, and this carries over to the design languages of motorcycle manufacturers. Ducati’s rich sporting heritage is evident in the Monster 1100’s more exuberant personality. Its lighter weight, shorter wheelbase and revvier motor give it an edge in strict performance terms.
On the other hand, Harley’s XR1200 brings a fresh take on the naked roadster. Its success lies in the fact that it attracts sport riders and Harley faithful in equal measures. Its dirt-track inspiration resonates with a huge cross-section of two-wheel enthusiasts, and this broadband appeal and friendly nature places the XR in an enviable position during normal city/commuter use. It’s also about $1200 less than the swanky Italian.
Still, although it’s the highest-performance H-D ever offered for mass consumption (sorry, the ill-fated and semi-street-legal VR1000 doesn’t count), the XR1200’s rangier wheelbase and extra poundage means that – given equal riders – the XR can’t hang with the more agile and lively Monster down a twisty mountain road.
Some say potato-potato; some say patata.
http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/ducati-monster-1100-vs-harleydavidson-xr1200-review-87928.html
...as an anology and as far as the VR1000s are concerned, lets not forget that the earlier Corvettes were also thought of by many to be a POS back in the day, but look at it NOW....time, technoogy, effort and proper marketing marches forward for many things..even Erik himself has said that marketing the Buell brand has been weak...
...btw I'm not disparraging Erik Buell's early, past, and present efforts....I give the man huge props for accomplishing what he and for the past 25 years or so...when I first read his mission statement regarding the design and purpose of his street bikes, and its results, I immediately understood and agreed with what he was doing...even when he went with a water-cooled motor, the gist is always the same (so far): sensible ergos and adequate hp/tq for street riding in a bike with charater...sorry, but the same can't be said for the IL4 sportbikes...and I've had my share of IL4 sportbikes...to each his own, yes?
...damn...I need to type with my reading glasses on...I meant to write "what he has done for the past 25 years or so" and "character"...it sux getting older  ...good thing there are Harleys and Buells for us "sensible, older riders"....hater TedG excluded
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smokehouse4444
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posted March 24, 2009 04:46 AM
Gabe, I completely agree with you. I made my points due to a magazine article that was posted about this particular Harley and some sportbike comparisons. I'm like WWHHHAAATTTT? I don't mind Harley's so much as I get tired of some of their "get a real bike like mine" attitude. It is not as bad now, but when I first started street riding in 1983, it was quite different, and the source of several - shall we say - disagreements. And Worm, I don't for a minute think you are a "sensible, older rider". lol
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smokehouse4444
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posted March 24, 2009 04:48 AM
By the way, Gabe, enjoyed the read.
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fish_antlers
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posted March 24, 2009 06:03 AM
quote:
Well..... Did anyone happen to see what a Buell did to the other "factory" bikes at Fontana this weekend ?......
I did... but those aren't Harley engine Buells though...
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SteveWFL
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posted March 24, 2009 06:11 AM
quote:
quote:
Well..... Did anyone happen to see what a Buell did to the other "factory" bikes at Fontana this weekend ?......
I did... but those aren't Harley engine Buells though...
man you messed up their wet dream! I thought Buell threw in the towel and gave up on their crappy engines and went ROTAX!?
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Gabe
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posted March 24, 2009 06:25 AM
quote:
quote:
Well..... Did anyone happen to see what a Buell did to the other "factory" bikes at Fontana this weekend ?......
I did... but those aren't Harley engine Buells though...
They're also TWICE the displacement of the Japanese Inline fours!
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worm~hole
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posted March 24, 2009 06:29 AM
...Buell is as much an American sportbike product with its Austrian-designed Rotax engine as the Honda GoldWing is a Japanese bike thats assembled in America...as American as a Dodge Ram heco de Mexico...as American as Isuzu-engined Chevy's Silverado Duramax...some of you guys need to stop being silly and start recognizing a product's main or primary country of origin and design and just call it what it is: an American product
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worm~hole
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posted March 24, 2009 06:34 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Well..... Did anyone happen to see what a Buell did to the other "factory" bikes at Fontana this weekend ?......
I did... but those aren't Harley engine Buells though...
They're also TWICE the displacement of the Japanese Inline fours!
...but there's a number of cylinders/max displacment/max hp/bike weight formula that makes them pretty much equal....someone smarter than me could elaborate on this...
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Gabe
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posted March 24, 2009 06:40 AM
I did... but those aren't Harley engine Buells though...
They're also TWICE the displacement of the Japanese Inline fours!
...but there's a number of cylinders/max displacment/max hp/bike weight formula that makes them pretty much equal....someone smarter than me could elaborate on this...
Dude, a stock 1125R makes more power at the back wheel than a factory-prepped, big-bucks, skunk-works YZF-R6 does at the crank! That's basically unequal no matter how many cylinders or what the bike weighs or whatever.
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SteveWFL
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posted March 24, 2009 06:41 AM
cheating on CC's is another point - and even the similar Duc performs better on less CC's with the same type engine (see above)
the point is overlooked fish made about "they're not even Buell engines" ? 
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Gabe
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posted March 24, 2009 06:48 AM
quote:
cheating on CC's is another point - and even the similar Duc performs better on less CC's with the same type engine (see above)
the point is overlooked fish made about "they're not even Buell engines" ?
I thought this was an H-D discussion, but many motorcycle companies outsource every component, including engines. Ducati, for instance, only assembles engines in its factory. Castings, cylinders, heads, cranks, everything is made at outside suppliers.
Buell engineers were heavily involved in every step of the design process, and the Helicon motor is nothing like the unit found in the Aprilia RSV1000. The frame is made in the USA, and the bike is assembled in Wisconsin.
Even if the Buell isn't an "American" bike, who cares? What happened to judging something on its merits rather than who made it or what country it's from?
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SteveWFL
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posted March 24, 2009 06:50 AM
Duc doesn't outsource their whole engines and engine "designs" to other companies 
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Gabe
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posted March 24, 2009 06:54 AM
quote:
Duc doesn't outsource their whole engines and engine "designs" to other companies
I would respectfully submit that you don't know everything that goes on in the Ducati factory, but that's beside the point. Who cares where the engine comes from as long as it does the job. I've ridden the 1125 and it's a great bike. Who cares where the engine is made or who made it?
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SteveWFL
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posted March 24, 2009 07:01 AM
Edited By: SteveWFL on 24 Mar 2009 15:03
Gabe you're right, I'm a consumer and not an expert or even close. I have no idea what goes on at Duc (or Harley). And I appreciate your well-written critique.
You keep defending this bike. Someone needs to tip Harley that the new bike isn't performing as well as the Duc 1100 CC per my expert reference in this thread. You elected not to compare the bike to anything in your article, why is that?
Also, my non-expert opinion is this bike you wrote on I suspect will fail in sales - the only bikes it will offer competition to in the market place is other Harleys. Am I off?
Worm is with you, but he dodges the "same" experienced rider on this bike and its competition.
Can we revisit this thread at the end of the year and discuss the success of this bike? Plus if its a hit for Harley and it brings new business, they'll be mentioning it in their quarterly earnings.
Maybe I'm way off, again I'm a consumer not an expert. I love bikes and occasional track days. But not an industry expert or fast racer or even close.
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Gabe
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posted March 24, 2009 07:10 AM
quote:
Gabe you're right, I'm a consumer and not an expert or even close. I have no idea what goes on at Duc (or Harley). And I appreciate your well-written critique.
You keep defending this bike. Someone needs to tip Harley that the new bike isn't performing as well as the Duc 1100 CC per my expert reference in this thread. You elected not to compare the bike to anything in your article, why is that?
Also, my non-expert opinion is this bike you wrote on I suspect will fail in sales - the only bikes it will offer competition to in the market place is other Harleys. Am I off?
Worm is with you, but he dodges the "same" experienced rider on this bike and its competition.
Can we revisit this thread at the end of the year and discuss the success of this bike? Plus if its a hit for Harley and it brings new business, they'll be mentioning it in their quarterly earnings.
Maybe I'm way off, again I'm a consumer not an expert. I love bikes and occasional track days. But not an industry expert or fast racer or even close.
Which bike are you talking about here? If it's the 1125R, I'm not defending it so much as I'm pointing out that it's a good bike that should be judged on its merits, not compared to a Ducati 1198, which is $5000 more and aimed at a different customer.
If you're talking about the XR1200, I didn't compare it to other bikes in my story because it's not a comparison test. As far as failing in sales, I think the bike has already been successful in Europe and USA dealers are selling as many as they can get their hands on. Will it pull customers in from other brands? Probably more than other H-D models...but H-D is already the #1 brand in the USA, so I'm not sure H-D really cares. I agree, though, only time will tell.
Let me know if that answers all your questions: I'm a little confused about what you wanted to parse out here.
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K Bryant
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posted March 24, 2009 08:09 AM
quote:
Dude, a stock 1125R makes more power at the back wheel than a factory-prepped, big-bucks, skunk-works YZF-R6 does at the crank! That's basically unequal no matter how many cylinders or what the bike weighs or whatever.
Wrong. The stock 1125R makes 120 hp at the rear wheel. A "factory prepped" Supersport bike is well over 130 hp at the rear wheel.
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aliveagain
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posted March 24, 2009 08:30 AM
I fail to see why it is being compared on the track.These bikes are for the street and designed that way.If I had the money, I would love to have a Buell as it would be a hoot with the short wheelbase.If you ride 90% on the street,shame on you.You're an ass and a squid!
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