Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted October 01, 2002 05:08 PM
quote:
SO you are saying that there are 2 grades with some of the "Numbers" I used "8 & 12" and are you also saying that the 8.8 is weaker than the 12.9?? would you also say that the 12.9 is usually Black from the heat treatment and usually has ridges around the outside?? and would you say that the 8.8 weaker bolt is usually silver Nicad which has no ridges and therefore smaller head?? OK!! Now when I was in school, Grade was the level of knowledge and Class was usually the subject in the grade! First comes the Grade and second comes the class! So if a dummy like me walked into a fastner store and asked for a 6 mm bolt that was 22 to 25 mm long and was not stronger than a grade "8" , do you think they would give me a 12.9 "Class" bolt??
In 59 years, I have never had that happen, but I will be sure to let you know when it does! All I was trying to get across was to order the weakest bolt with a rating! Since I do not know everything, and there may be a 6.6 or a 7.7, or 3 marks or 6 marks or no writing vs some writing, I tried to make sure the understanding was Less Strength was better than more! I try not to talk in any technical terms if possible here! Everyone already says that I sometimes speak down to people, so I try to give information with a little technical jargon as possible! If that is OK with you! (You can use stainless)
Damn, Vincent! Keep your shorts on!! I told you I was being a picky fuck!
All I was trying to say is that "American" fasteners (stuff like 1/4-20, 3/8-16, etc..) use the SAE nomenclature you were referring to (Grade 5, Grade 8, etc..) and Metric fasteners use a different nomenclature (Class 8.8, Class 12.9, etc..). And I thought that people on these sites DID want to know the technical information - isn't that really why most of us are here??
Everybody is free to use whatever hardware they'd like to use (because I say so!!). I personally don't agree with using the smallest head diameter screws available to mount these stacks. The slot width on the stacks is pretty generous, and going with the smallest head diameter fastener you can find gives you VERY LITTLE clamping/holding area. Plus, Pierre has made a change on all the new stacks he is producing to allow more clearance for the screw heads - so there won't be any need on the new ones coming out to use the smallest heads available.
When I think back over the past several months of all the stuff I've seen posted about what hardware was used to mount the stacks, I can't help but think that it would be best if Pierre would just include the installation screws with the stacks!! But, since he doesn't do that right now, MY recommendation is M6-1.0 x 22mm Class 12.9. (Yes --- the ones with the black oxide finish and ridges on the outside!).
  
|
vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
|
posted October 02, 2002 05:18 AM
seems like some post got deleted from this thread...??????????
|
vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
|
posted October 02, 2002 09:51 AM
BEAR STACKS...to the top
|
Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted October 07, 2002 07:40 PM
quote:
BEAR STACKS...to the top
Looks pretty fuckin' dead to me.
OVER AND OUT!
|
ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted October 07, 2002 07:54 PM
Yes I have Bear Stacks on my 1361. Yes I have new O-rings thanks to Vincent. Yes the fastener issue is a pain in the butt. Luckily I had the right bolts in my spare bolt kit!
And the reason for this post needing to be at the top or at least just below Fish's clutch petition is............???????????
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 08, 2002 07:09 AM
The extra relief is an air-flow issue! "What" ever size bolt head that fits is the correct one! 22 mm lenght is not always easy to find! (25 mm 1 inch long is). The Cad Plated bolts do not rust, the harden surface (Black oxide) do rust! It is not a strength issue, very little stress is placed on the stacks!
I have spoken to Pierre about the Bolts (which cost him less than us in the USA). Personally, I understand his feelings and think he will get better as he deals with us! To him we are where "Everything" is readily available, vs, serious work to find anything over there! It is hard for him to understand that because it is like it is over here, that we expect the stacks to do everything except to put themselves in the air box for us! I think he also feels that he is an engineer and not a Hardware store and is having a hard time understanding the "American" Culture! It is simply a time and experience problem! He now supplies the step shoulder Bolts with his swingarm buttons! (But I feel he cannot understand why someone would want to spend $18 for buttons and Bolts, when they could Spend $14 for just the buttons)! Remember, he had sold exactly nothing to us here in the USA this time last year! He is an "Extremely" loyal and Honest man! His word is to die for! He trusts people 100% until they cannot be trusted and then he trust them 0% forever! So I have "NEVER" Broken my word to him and do what I can to help him understand dealing with us!
After All, if he can do business with me and er get along, then "No Problem" for everyone else! Remember it is Culture and experience! I took this time and tried to help a little!!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted October 08, 2002 07:24 AM
My suggestion would be to at least included information with the stacks that you the customer need to pick up the following fastners at your hardware store prior to install. In my case I tackled the job on a late Sunday and was lucky to just happen to have some bolts in my spare bolt kit. MOst guys would have had their bike disassembled and been hosed. It's kind of like the batteries not included label on the box! It would appear that Pierre is a stand up guy having taken everyone on their word about the O-rings. So I would suspect the packaging and communications will improve.
My two cents worth.
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 08, 2002 08:44 AM
I had the exact same surprise! I knew that there were "Hex" Bolts, but did not realize I needed Allen until I had it apart! Being a "Little" Older, I had the patience that at least "ONE"  of us did not have and waited until I had the Allens! I will send him a message right now! (Allens or warning!)
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted October 08, 2002 09:16 AM
For $250 you'd think the hardware required to install them would be included.
Do you have to spot face/counterbore the area where the bolts install or does the cap screws (allen head internal wrenching) allieviate this problem. I'm going by pics posted on bergies web site.
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 08, 2002 09:28 AM
Do not look at Bergie's site as an example of what to do! No Offence to Bergie! The cap screws/bolts fit without any of the "Machining" Bergie did! $250 is a lot of money, but not for taking a large chunk of metal and making it into these stacks 4 times for each set! If they were made here, they would cost closer to $500 This is one time "Volume" can only help a little! It still takes a lot of time to make each one!
|
vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
|
posted October 16, 2002 07:35 AM
Red Rocket... where ya get bolts im having a time finding them... they can order them for me but have to order a min of 100 bolts...from my local nuts and bolts place
____________
VOZ
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 16, 2002 08:10 AM
Home Depot, Lowes! They both have a Bolt & Nut section! I have seen the 6 mm x 25 mm there! The good news is that Pierre will add $2.00 to the price of the stacks and "Supply" the Bolts in the future! If I can find a "Cheap" Supplier, I will buy some 22 mm lenght bolts (or 25 mm length) and just send them out period! It will be "Cheaper" than the "0" rings!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
|
posted October 16, 2002 09:02 AM
i can get 22mm for about 79 cents each but ya have to order 100 or more
____________
VOZ
|
Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted October 16, 2002 02:09 PM
quote:
Red Rocket... where ya get bolts im having a time finding them... they can order them for me but have to order a min of 100 bolts...from my local nuts and bolts place
From my local nut and bolt supplier - with a minimum order of WAY more than 100 bolts! I just included them with an order I was placing at work for a bunch of metric hardware. If you can't find them at some regular hardware store, I'd probably just order them from McMaster-Carr Supply Company.
|
boost12r
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
|
posted October 16, 2002 03:00 PM
Whose done some sort of dyno comparo? $250 dollars is lot to be wasting on something that looks good but you can't see!
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 16, 2002 04:51 PM
Boost 12r, I first tested them and then about everyone else has tested them in different ways! So much work has been done on them that it is hard to answer someone that is new here with patience, but because we were all new at somthing and asked questions that seemed mild but pissed people off! ("$250 dollars is a lot to be WASTING on something that looks good but you can't see")
You cannot see inside Pussy, but is there any question that it is good and people spend a lot of money on it??
They Make between 3 to 7 Static HP (Sitting still on the Dyno) No one has been able to Quantify the exact HP at speed, but the 4 to 7 MPH "EVERYONE" has gained is equal to 15 to 20 more Dynamic HP!
They are "NOT" for everyone! There is no reason for street squirrels, profilers and touring riders. They "ARE" for Drag Racers and Land Speed Racers or anyone that wants or needs the last 5 to 7 mph or the last tenth of a second in a Quarter Mile!
Bergie, If there were 2 bikes built by the same person with all of the same things done, but the only difference was one has your ground out stacks and one had untouched stacks that had the silicone put over the heads of the bolts to sommth air flow even more, which one would you take? It would not be fair to ask anyone else because looks alone would stop them! but if there is even a chance of 1 mph difference or even 1/100 of a second in a Quarter Mile, would you want to take that risk??
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 17, 2002 05:05 AM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 22 Oct 2002 11:03
This weekend I will take some Pics! BTW, I have had 12th hour "Situations" The only difference, no one ever got to see what I did! (My last rase at Daytona I had an Oil leak that I found, but could not stop! I siliconed the entire engine like a diaper! Of course I used Black Silicone!)
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted October 22, 2002 09:16 AM
I have updated the Bear Stacks Installation page on my website http://www.dontbescaredracing.com/bearstacks/
|
vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
|
posted October 22, 2002 03:52 PM
Bergie, ya got some stacks ya wanna get rid of?
____________
VOZ
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 22, 2002 04:07 PM
Bergie, Make him an offer he cannot refuse with the notched stacks??
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
moodybluezx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 344
|
posted October 22, 2002 04:11 PM
make me the same offer...bergie 
____________
Raleigh, NC
Ride it! Like You Stole It!
|
vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
|
posted October 22, 2002 06:21 PM
quote:
Bergie, Make him an offer he cannot refuse with the notched stacks??
PLEASE DO!!!!
____________
VOZ
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted October 22, 2002 07:36 PM
Sorry those stacks were given to us by Bear for testing I wouldn't be honest to sell them besides we are still using them! 
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 22, 2002 08:02 PM
I Guess that "Answers" That Question! (Bergie, I was not trying to "Start" anything, but from listening to you, I thought you had "Replaced" them with another set.) That was my thinking! Also I could have been correct! If I was, then there were 2 people wanting to buy them and all would be good in Bikeland (Pun intended)
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted October 22, 2002 08:38 PM
I have another set of stacks on the project silver 12, which actually may end up being "project another color" if we can't find replacement plastics for it soon.. The "disfigured" stacks are still on the green machine
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC