BALTIMORE410
Expert Class
Posts: 456
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posted September 21, 2008 02:14 AM
1349CC BIG BORE KIT?
IS THIS BIG BORE KIT STREETABLE??? LIKE DAILY RIDE MATERIAL..... SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD BE A HANDFUL TO PLAY WITH I ALREADY HAVE THE 1270CC UPGRADE ON MY BIKE **PREVIOUS OWNER** RIGHT NOW IM IN THE MIDDLE OF BUILDING MY BIKE UP SLOWLY FROM BRAKES....ONCE THATS FINISHED THAN ILL GO FOR POWER
   
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oldkawboy
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posted September 21, 2008 06:58 AM
Stephen,
If you're talking about for your 12 you gotta get a stroker crank to get those kinda cc's. I'm thinking 86mm ( 3 mil over ) is the largest you can bore which is around a 1287.
Muzzy has a billet block where you can go up to 1317 but the kit's like 3 grand or so.
Now a 14 is a whole different story........
Dan
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted September 21, 2008 07:23 AM
The closest you'll get to 1349cc's is a 58mm stroke(2.6mm over) and 86mm bore (3mm over) which brings you to 1347cc's....
Can this combo be streetable? Yes, but reliability comes at the cost of performance so don't expect a 1347cc engine built for the street to churn out the same #'s as a high-spec "race only" 1347cc engine built for the track.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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Shane661
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posted September 21, 2008 07:31 AM
APE sells a "kit" that is a 1394 (I assume this is what you are thinking about). More than anything else it will depend on your builder. The strokers are known to have reliability issues if assembly is not precise.
While this is obviously a concern with any engine build, it seems that the strokers require extra care and attention to detail if you want them to survive.
Do a search on the various size stroker motors, 1361, 1375, 1394, and 1427. You should find some good information.
Shane
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suix
Expert Class
Posts: 122
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posted September 21, 2008 07:55 AM
your current muzzys 1270+ muzzys crankshaft with a stroke increase of 4.6 mm, special base spacer and gasket= 1375cc
http://www.muzzys.com/ZX1375/index.html
or send your block to aperaceparts
bore your 1270-85.4mm to 1287-86mm=1290cc
add on a 4.6mm stroke wil give you 1394cc
http://zxzone.com/
sell your 1270
buy muzzys 1317 billet block
add on a 4.6mm stroke will give you 1427
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Hells Dark Lord
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Posts: 7981
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posted September 21, 2008 09:28 AM
ok question for you big motor guys.....it looks like I will be keeping my 01 ZX12R, and its a lot of fun, but I am thinking of doing a big bore kit, if I do, I would like to pull 200hp or more. I thought about a 1270 kit, but they dont always get the magic 200 mark. If I put in Muzzys 1317 kit it should be a pretty easy 200hp, but will it be streetable. I am not a drag racer, just a HP junkie and enjoy just riding.
I have never had anything but a stock motored bike. Pretty good states of tune, but still only stock, what do you think?
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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shane661
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posted September 21, 2008 09:35 AM
 Edited By: shane661 on 21 Sep 2008 17:39
The 1317 block has offset cylinder bores. This could cause a problem with reliability, based on the experience of some others. Entropy could tell you more about that.
You can find a dyno that will read 200 hp with a 1270 or 1287, and it won't be too hard.
That 200 dyno hp is really meaningless overall. You can get a lot more performance than you think from under 1300cc's. Definitely enough to run an 8 second 1/4 mile, or 200+ mph...if it is built right.
Shane
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted September 21, 2008 01:25 PM
quote:
ok question for you big motor guys.....it looks like I will be keeping my 01 ZX12R, and its a lot of fun, but I am thinking of doing a big bore kit, if I do, I would like to pull 200hp or more. I thought about a 1270 kit, but they dont always get the magic 200 mark. If I put in Muzzys 1317 kit it should be a pretty easy 200hp, but will it be streetable. I am not a drag racer, just a HP junkie and enjoy just riding.
I have never had anything but a stock motored bike. Pretty good states of tune, but still only stock, what do you think?
200 rwhp on the dyno? Phshhhhh..... just slap a simple dry nitrous kit on there and spray a little 40 shot. Keep the MPG, reliability, and $$$$$$$!!!
My 100% untouched bone stock 12R engine made 215rwhp SAE on a DJ250 with ONLY
- BMC Race filter
- Akrapovic exhaust
- PC3R (stock timing)
- 40 shot Dry Nitrous
- 93 oct PUMP gas
Others here have had very similar results with equal mods. Unless you're planning on racing competitively.... you don't need more CC's.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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ZuminaZX
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted September 21, 2008 05:19 PM
Could any kind of 12r motor kit be installed by a shade-tree mechanic? I know that muzzy advertises their 1270 kits as "bolt in and go".
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Hells Dark Lord
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living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted September 21, 2008 05:34 PM
my ZX12 puts 183.3 to the wheel with just bolt on parts. I appreciate the info, but remember I do NOT race this bike. I do not want power adders like NOS. Its a daily ridden bike. MY thinking was that I could get over 200 hp with the 1317 kit with a mild state of tune and keep it reliable, as opposed to tweaking the hell out of a 1270 and maxing it all out.
My bike is not stretched or slammed, and I do all different sorts of riding with the bike. I am just a HP junkie, and I do not want to trade off the reliablity of the bike.
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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KZScott
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posted September 21, 2008 05:39 PM
you have to know what you are doing, or have someone who does walk you thru it IMO and have the proper tools(not plastiguage). sizing bearings and timing cams for the first time can be tricky
to get a 1349 with the 1270 pistons, i think you need like a 3.4mm stroker, but i cant remember off the top of my head and im too tired to do math. Phantom, a 2.7mm stroker with the 1287 pistons gets you 1349 (if you want that last cc and still stay in the 1350 class  )
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Phantom13
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Posts: 736
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posted September 22, 2008 05:19 PM
Better to stay with whole numbers. 86 x 58
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"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted September 22, 2008 05:58 PM
quote:
my ZX12 puts 183.3 to the wheel with just bolt on parts. I appreciate the info, but remember I do NOT race this bike. I do not want power adders like NOS. Its a daily ridden bike. MY thinking was that I could get over 200 hp with the 1317 kit with a mild state of tune and keep it reliable, as opposed to tweaking the hell out of a 1270 and maxing it all out.
My bike is not stretched or slammed, and I do all different sorts of riding with the bike. I am just a HP junkie, and I do not want to trade off the reliablity of the bike.
Hate to break it to you, but you're not going to see over 200rwhp SAE on an honest dyno without giving up significant reliability. High spec 1287's can't break 200rwhp SAE without fancy expensive race fuels or very happy dynos.... and extra 30cc's won't give you nearly the same power gains as the big cams and race fuel.
If you want 200+rwhp and reliability of a stocker..... a small properly set-up and tuned dry nitrous shot on a stock engine is the best way to go. Only drawback is limited use...
Just as an example, I raced my stock engine with a 40 shot every weekend, repeatedly for long durations each run (18 sec at a time) on 93oct PUMP GAS for a couple years...... when I took apart my engine to build my 1287, the stock pistons showed absolutely NO signs of any damage and the crank and rod bushings showed NORMAL wear for a 25k mi engine. Yes, this was my daily driver too....
It's your bike and your $$$, I just think you deserve to know there's an easier (and MUCH cheaper) way to achieve your goal than simply adding displacement.
Good luck with whatever you end up doing, I'm sure you'll be happy regardless.... 200+rwhp is fun no matter how you get it !!! LOL
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted September 22, 2008 06:48 PM
For a normally asperated motor, "There's no replacement for displacement"
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We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted September 22, 2008 08:00 PM
I respecfully disagree.....
Set-up, Tuning, and finding the RIGHT engine combo will always trump cc's in the real world.
Displacement is only one piece of a VERY large puzzle..... and bigger isn't always better.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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KZScott
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posted September 23, 2008 12:58 AM
quote:
Better to stay with whole numbers. 86 x 58
why?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted September 23, 2008 05:59 AM
this may be out of line from the way you are talking about but think about advancing the cams a bit for more mid range and low end and get rid of some overlap. that should make a monster low and mid range hit and walk bikes when playing. if you loose 7 hp on topend it is always a comprimize but like phantom says cheep 40shot and tuneing. i say this cause my zx11 has the cams in at 99 in and 100 ex. it worked well for the track and pulling your arms off. comp was 195 to 200 psi with all the cylinder fill.good torque.
just a thought.
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Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
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posted September 23, 2008 12:20 PM
I run a 1394 on the road. APE kit.
ridden it to two top speed racing events, no problem.
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted September 23, 2008 04:48 PM
I've got an A1 1361 12 that is a daily rider that makes 212 RWHP w/124 ft/lbs torque. Do you know of a normally asperated 1200 cc 12 that makes even close to that?
[
quote]I respecfully disagree.....
Set-up, Tuning, and finding the RIGHT engine combo will always trump cc's in the real world.
Displacement is only one piece of a VERY large puzzle..... and bigger isn't always better.
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted September 24, 2008 01:50 PM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 24 Sep 2008 22:19
On the dyno, displacement and horsepower win.... but in the REAL WORLD (where it counts) it's a lot more complicated that putting down good numbers with a strong engine. It's EXTREMELY common for big bikes with big horsepower to get whooped up by small bikes with small horsepower, simply because of set-up and tuning.
If you're sizing up a bikes performance based on what the dyno tells you.... then you're in for a world of hurt and embarrassment in the racing world.
Here's a couple video's to help you see where I'm coming from...
1397cc fully built Hayabusa vs 998cc ZX-10R with just cams and thin headgasket
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1210363376511107937
1397cc fully built Hayabusa vs 999cc GSXR-1000 stock engine + fully set-up drag chassis
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7931839186364076625
Again, horsepower is only a piece of a much larger puzzle.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted September 24, 2008 01:57 PM
quote:
quote:
Better to stay with whole numbers. 86 x 58
why?
Phantom??
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted September 24, 2008 03:02 PM
I'm not talking apples and oranges (suzis and kawis) Take two identical bikes. Increase the displacement on one of them, and then fine tune both bikes to the max. All things being =, the bike with the greater displacement will come out on top in any contest you care to choose.
quote:
On the dyno, displacement and horsepower win.... but in the REAL WORLD (where it counts) it's a lot more complicated that putting down good numbers with a strong engine. It's EXTREMELY common for big bikes with big horsepower to get whooped up by small bikes with small horsepower, simply because of set-up and tuning.
If you're sizing up a bikes performance based on what the dyno tells you.... then you're in for a world of hurt and embarrassment in the racing world.
Here's a couple video's to help you see where I'm coming from...
1397cc fully built Hayabusa vs 998cc ZX-10R with just cams and thin headgasket
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1210363376511107937
1397cc fully built Hayabusa vs 999cc GSXR-1000 stock engine + fully set-up drag chassis
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7931839186364076625
Again, horsepower is only a piece of a much larger puzzle.
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted September 24, 2008 05:43 PM
You initially stated the following quote:
"There's no replacement for displacement".
I'm saying there IS a replacement for displacement and provided you with 2 video's of concrete proof. Weither it be Suzuki vs Kawasaki or literbike vs hyperbike.... it doesn't matter because the point being made is that POWER and DISPLACEMENT ARE REPLACEABLE. In these cases, it was due to ligher weight along with higher rpm allowing shorter final gearing which of course MULTIPLIES ENGINE TORQUE. Sort of like "artificial cc's" via gearing.
Granted, larger engines will create more power under the curve... the limited rpm's force that engine to pull taller gearing which decreases "thrust". Thrust is what dictates RPM over TIME.... otherwise known as "acceleration".
So your "all things being equal" example only works if the only variable is displacement.... fortunately, there are alternative methods to increasing applied thrust other than increasing displacement, and increasing thrust/acceleration is increasing performance REGARDLESS of how you achieve it.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted September 24, 2008 06:20 PM
so why is 2.7 not a whole number?......
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted September 24, 2008 06:29 PM
I still maintain, Apples to Apples, there is "no replacement for displacement." I don't know anyone who would assert this position w/o regard to all other factors being even. I own a 12 not a busa. So, apples to oranges I chose less displacement because I believed the overall package was better. If I believed displacement rules (apples to oranges) I would have bought a boss hoss, God forbid
quote:
You initially stated the following quote:
"There's no replacement for displacement".
I'm saying there IS a replacement for displacement and provided you with 2 video's of concrete proof. Weither it be Suzuki vs Kawasaki or literbike vs hyperbike.... it doesn't matter because the point being made is that POWER and DISPLACEMENT ARE REPLACEABLE. In these cases, it was due to ligher weight along with higher rpm allowing shorter final gearing which of course MULTIPLIES ENGINE TORQUE. Sort of like "artificial cc's" via gearing.
Granted, larger engines will create more power under the curve... the limited rpm's force that engine to pull taller gearing which decreases "thrust". Thrust is what dictates RPM over TIME.... otherwise known as "acceleration".
So your "all things being equal" example only works if the only variable is displacement.... fortunately, there are alternative methods to increasing applied thrust other than increasing displacement, and increasing thrust/acceleration is increasing performance REGARDLESS of how you achieve it.
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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