Y2KZX12R
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posted August 16, 2002 05:16 PM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 16 Aug 2002 18:23
Heres your GREAT AMA at work...
The AMA is so Fucked... They are such fuckwit amatures at doing anything. There needs to be a REAL motorcycle racing sanctioning body in the USA. I cant believe I used to be a member. Its no wonder Kevin Schwantz just resigned and walked away.
8/15/2002
Injured Himmelsbach Was Unattended For 17 Minutes Following VIR Crash
Copyright 2002, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
Veteran racer Bill Himmelsbach lay unattended with a broken pelvis, broken ribs and a collapsed lung for 17 minutes after he crashed on the opening lap of the first official practice session of the AMA weekend at VIR.
Himmelsbach fell on his out lap when his Yamaha TZ250 puked cooling water, which flowed into the dammed-fairing but escaped through a drain hole that is supposed to be plugged during dry-weather use.
He lay trackside, alone, while riders--who saw the incident and noted that no workers had gone to Himmelsbach--repeatedly came into the pits and asked that the session be red-flagged and Himmelsbach assisted.
The first rider to come into the pits was Ed Sorbo, who told a grid marshall, who radioed race control.
Sorbo came back into the pits after the next lap, and again asked that the session be red-flagged and Himmelsbach assisted. The grid marshall again radioed race control.
Next, rider Andy Edwards came into the pits and asked the starter to red-flag the session; the starter radioed control.
Finally, an irate Rich Oliver came into the pits and demanded that something be done, and this time, race control responded to the radioed-in report of Oliver's demands by calling for a red flag.
Elapsed time from Himmelsbach's crash to the red flag was 17 minutes, with some additional time for an ambulance crew to reach Himmelsbach.
AMA officials had a meeting with the ambulance service providers after the incident, and said afterwards that the placement of the nearest ambulance made it impossible for it to go to Himmelsbach's position without getting too close to the hot racetrack.
The ambulance was repositioned after the meeting.
No explanation was given regarding why Sorbo, Edwards and Oliver had to come into the pits to get a red flag, nor regarding why action was not taken when Sorbo and Edwards first requested it.
Because the session in which Himmelsbach fell was the first on Friday morning, scheduling concerns did not come into play.
I dispise frivilous lawsuits and think they are crippling the USA. But I would like to see the AMA sued out of existence on this one. Shut the whole AMA down and disband it completely.
Then start a completely new racing orginization to run races in the USA.
This is not the first time this has happened in AMA racing. Its not even the 2nd time.
I'm so pissed off I cant begin to truely express it to you guys.
   
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 16, 2002 05:25 PM
8/15/2002
Timing And Scoring Display Problems Plagued AMA National At VIR
Copyright 2002, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
The Timing & Scoring system failed to transmit data to pit-lane monitors about 30% of the time during the AMA National at VIR last weekend.
The system was not up and operational at all for the first two hours of official practice on Friday, and failed repeatedly during the weekend.
Race teams rely on data transmitted from the system and displayed on monitors along pit lane.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 16, 2002 05:27 PM
8/15/2002
More Reader Reaction To Various Posts
Copyright 2002, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
Via e-mail:
Watching the race on TV certainly isn't the same as being there, but as a racer there were a couple of things that really surprised me about the weekend's action.
When Nicky's RC-51 burst into flames, it was frustrating to see a cornerworker casually sauntering over to the machine, turn around and get a fire extinguisher, and mosey on back to the bike. Then Speed showed a shot of Nicky trying to put out fires on the bike while fighting the cornerworker for possession of the extinguisher. Where's the sense of urgency? These teams don't have money presses in the back of the trucks...salvaging as much of a downed bike as possible is as important to them as it is to me, I'm sure. Plus a fire on the course isn't a minor occurrence...it was enough to merit a red flag on the course.
As far as Aaron on the track...naturally he would be pretty wound up on adrenaline after getting his bell rung like that, especially after being put on his head by a loose cannon crashing in front of him. But I imagine he was quite shocked that there was a smoking RC-51 on the track and no one was doing anything about it. Like I said, TV doesn't tell you much...but it looked like the red flag was not thrown until Aaron threw himself. The TV view made it look like the advertising banners were blocking the corner station's view of the downed bike. And this isn't the first time we've seen a horizontal RC-51 burst into flames, so it's a doubly dangerous possibility.
From a viewer's point of view Aaron may have overreacted, but maybe he didn't. I'm not about to condemn the guy for what he did after being run off the track, seeing a smoking bike lying in a visibly obscured part of the track, after having to kick the haybales off himself at Mid-Ohio while trying not to bleed to death only two weeks before. I hope he doesn't get reprimanded, especially after the determination it took to ride all those events he did this weekend. The red flag would have flown with or without him, but this way it happened before more riders closed in on the downed bike #80.
Of course, there are three sides to every story, but that's what it looked like in my living room.
Clint Fleckenstein
CRA #87
Wow...did Sadowski get up on the wrong side of the bed or what? Tony's comments were straight forward and are right on the mark. ..Aaron ran onto an active track and laid down. I can only surmise that Aaron and David must be close. He and Drebber were making excuses for Aaron from the moment he pulled the stunt. They certainly tried to spin the follow-up, rinky-dink track, Greg White interview.
Tony, by the way, has been at the forefront in taking action to make safety happen and has helped improve our racetrack immensely
David's comment's are emotionally charged and without merit. He ought to think before he hits the send button. I hope that this knee-jerk reaction is atypical.
Fred Olsen
Pittsfield, Maine
Wow, I check in everyday here for news/gossip... but this takes the cake, Tony Iannarelli seems to make a couple of rational opinions and ole Sadowski rips him a new one!?!? ("you are an idiot")
Give me a break, while Yates' acts at VIR are entertaining and somewhat admirable, they should come with some kind of punishment to prevent this WWF thing from happening again.
Additionally, "that's why they have
superstock....run with Jimmy Moore then move up".......That is funny chit Dave , now we can watch more 8 rider races............Dog away, I have a life.
Matt Carlyle
Without getting into the name calling that Mr. Sadowski feels is necessary, I'll just give a brief background.
I've not been around road racing as long as Mr. Sadowski, but I have been racing for almost 9 years. During that time I have always been a strong advocate of safety in road racing. I made both an individual donation to the Roadracing World Action Fund to buy Air Fence/Air Modules, and also organized a group that purchased 2 full sections for my local track. I've also pushed for other safety related items over the years, but my point is simply that track safety has always been an important issue to me.
I searched for the Roadracingworld.com post you're referring to, but the only one I found is the one titled, "A River of Blood: Aaron Yates Talks About His Mid-Ohio Superbike Crash". If that is the one you meant, then all I can say is that his accident was unfortunate and the fact that he was pinned under the bike must have been horrible. I agree completely that it sucks that we have to race at tracks with little or no run-off room, but that is the current situation of racetracks in America.
Regardless of that unfortunate incident, however, I see nothing in that message that supports laying down on a live track.
Apparently, quite a few people agree with me on that point as you can tell by an AMASuperbike.com poll. At the time I'm writing this, almost 60% of the votes say it was, "Easily the most careless, selfish and blatantly dangerous move I've ever seen in a race".
As far as Yates' efforts to improve rider safety, that's great. I applaud his efforts and know full well how hard it is to see something that is potentially dangerous on a track and be unable to get it corrected. It may give us some insight as to WHY he did this, but it still does not justify laying down on a live track.
While Yates' actions through traffic was a very minor point of my original email. I will respond to your comments above.
As racers, we both know that it is the faster rider's responsibility to get cleanly around the slower rider. As you have rightly stated many times during broadcasts, those lappers are out there going as fast as they can and often have no idea that they are about to be lapped. The best thing they can do is to maintain their speed and course and be predictable... if they do that, the faster rider will usually get by cleanly.
Having said that, we also know that sometimes you make a pass that was a bit hairy and might have spooked the lapper - possibly even causing them to crash. When that happens, you suck it up and apologize. Nothing I've seen on TV, or heard from other racers that have raced with Yates, would indicate that he apologized afterward. This was the reason for my comment.
As for the Blue Flag, I agree the AMA should use it. As a racer, I would rather know ahead of time if someone is going to lap me. Not because I will alter my line, but because it will reduce the "spook factor".
As for riders running Supersport bikes in Superbike, I agree they should stay in Superstock. I imagine crappy purses in that class are what encourages rider to step up to Superbike (not that those are much better, but that's a whole different subject). Regardless, blame the AMA for bad rules - not the rider you're about to lap.
The simple answer is to lower the percentage over the POLE TIME (again?), but that brings up the whole other issue of too few riders on the grid. Contrary to your statement, I don't think "I know it all" and will go on record to state that I don't have the answer to this problem.
And lastly, you say Yates should be commended?
I sincerely hope you're referring to PREVIOUS efforts on his part to improve safety. If you're saying that laying down on a live race track is a commendable action, then I think you may have bumped your head one too many times over the years.
As far as I could tell, the three riders that went by Yates after he got up, were still racing. They had not seen a Red Flag. This means that Yates intentionally laid down on a HOT TRACK, which put himself and those riders in danger.
I still maintain that this is WRONG... regardless of anything else that might have happened prior, such as Himmelsbach's incident, which is also inexcusable and something the AMA should have to answer for.
And just to be clear. I am NOT stating that Yates' actions are what brought out the Red Flag and that is why he should lose the points and finish position. I am saying that he should be stripped of his points and finish because of his actions.
Tony Iannarelli
I was extremely disappointed to read David Sadowski's immature name-calling antics and reply to Tony Iannarelli, regarding Aaron Yates' actions at VIR during Race One.
Iannarelli is correct, there is simply no excuse for what Yates did. If any one of those three riders had crushed Yates' sternum with a front wheel, Yates would be a front-runner for a Darwin Award. Imagine the headline: "Motorcycle Racer Killed After Voluntarily Going Spread-Eagle On Track During VIR Superbike Race."
As I watched the race, the amount of time that Yates spent lying flat on his back with no regard for oncoming traffic had my jaw on the floor. Stunning, and very dangerous. A live race is not the forum for protesting, people's lives were put at risk.
Why does a racer of Yates' immense talent do such a thing? Seeing Kevin Schwantz or Colin Edwards grab an oil flag and start waving after falling in goo is one thing, but you certainly don't very often see a factory Superbike racer strolling out on the tarmac then dropping flat onto his back in front of a horde of oncoming motorcycles.
Didn't the World Superbike Championship cancel the last race weekend of the '93 season in Mexico (handing Scott Russell the title in the process) because people were invading the racetrack during practice/qualifying? VIR '02 looks like the same old, same old to me.
Regards,
Rick Williams
Sacramento, CA
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 16, 2002 05:32 PM
8/16/2002
Updated Post: Corner Captain Comments On Himmelsbach And Yates Incidents At VIR
Copyright 2002, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
From e-mail:
I was the corner captain on turn 15 on Friday. I live in Pennsylvania about 30 miles from Bill (Himmelsbach) and knew it was he on the track. I could not believe how long it took for medical to show up after I called for them for Bill's incident. I called almost immediately. The crash started before my station and he slid down the hill coming to a stop almost in front of my flag station, about 10 yards off the track. My runner was with Bill in seconds, turned to me, requested an ambulance and proceeded to attend to Bill to the extent that we are allowed. He left Bill only to turn off his bike, which was still running.
I could see an ambulance outside the fence at turn 16, which was not moving. (No lights, nothing). I questioned control as to the status of medical and why the ambulance in 16 was not responding. I should have requested the practice be stopped but thought I'd provided control with enough information to make that decision.
The practice was stopped after an inexcusable length of time. The end result was that the medics from 16 after a short drive in the infield walked to the incident. After they had arrived an ambulance showed up on the infield side of the fence.
I was the corner captain on turn 4 on Sunday. I hand-signaled the flagger (who had the radio - I had a scanner) to call control to stop the race as soon as I saw the bike on the racing surface. He did so. The flagger could not see Roberts' bike or Yates on the track because of the triangles that were in the grass. The fire started while I was requesting the stoppage. From the direction I was running I never saw Yates on the track but I was watching traffic, which was getting heavy, so as not to become part of the incident and the flagger to make sure the red flag came out. I was also concerned that Roberts seemed to be wandering around the bike and may have had his bell rung as he was not paying much attention to the traffic. The red flag was out when I got to the bike and Roberts and Yates were off the track. There were fire bottles coming from turn 5, as they were closer to the incident than we were in turn 4. There were only three of us in turn 4. If I had one or two more people I'd have placed them at the end of the Air Fence approximately at the location of the incident. We do the best we can with what we are given.
The flagger is an experienced cornerworker (including com) and racer. He had a leg injury and was not in the best condition to run and pick up riders and bikes. Considering the elapsed time from the start of the incident to the red flag being shown with the "stop the race" communication to control things happened reasonably well. (Approximately 20 seconds) The red flag was coming out before Yates laid on the track. No one else got involved in the incident. When I'm assigned as a captain, I use the people assigned to me at jobs they are best qualified to perform in the interest of race safety. I did this in turn 4 on Sunday.
Jim Simpson
aka "Homer"
PA Posse and others
Reading, PA
More, via e-mail from a racer:
I wholeheartedly agree with Sean Jordan's sentiments that cornerworkers are the unsung heroes of road racing. Unfortunately, his comments did little to show any competency on the part of the AMA with respect to its cornerworkers. In fact, many of Sean's comments actually supported my case.
I'm glad he clocked the response time for cornerworkers to get to Nicky's bike. Nearly two minutes! In that time, one of Nicky's teammates could have ridden back to the pits, picked up a fire extinguisher and been back around to put out Nicky's bike! After all, a lap only takes a 1:26 or so, right? Add in some extra time for the weight of the extinguisher and there you go! Can you actually imagine seeing a World Superbike rider or Grand Prix rider being left unattended following a crash for two minutes? It's unheard of and completely unacceptable.
The AMA should have had cornerworkers situated so that it would never take that long to get to anyone. If cornerworkers are going to be placed so far from where they'll be needed, then they should at least be conscientious enough to run (not walk, mosey, or saunter) when someone goes down.
Further, Sean's argument that the cornerworkers at VIR were quick and efficient is completely thrown out the door when we see what happened to Himmelsbach on Friday. 17 minutes unattended! Broken pelvis, broken ribs, collapsed lung. It is beyond all defense. How can Sean stand behind the AMA and the VIR cornerworkers? I'm sorry, but the AMA has some serious answering to do. Aaron Yates is the least of their safety problems.
Stephen Robinson
AFM #756
San Francisco, CA
My blood is boiling when reading about the Bill Himmelsbach incident. I think there needs to be a wave of Safety Vilgilantes take over the racetracks in this country!
Apparently, riders need to police the racetrack for their own safety. From now on, I encourage all riders who see red flag situations that are not being addressed by race officials to simply stop at the start/finish line, pick up the red flag and stop the race themselves.
The most single most assinine thing in motorcycle racing is that someone in a box removed from an incident is in charge of stopping a race. The situation must be explained by a cornerworker, thought about by a remote person, and then acted upon by the same person who can't even see what has happened.
What if the friggin' batteries died in a radio? "Oh well, we don't have permission from race control to stop this race, I guess this guy and the people who are going to run him over will have to die..."
Last spring at Daytona I saw a guy fall in the first horseshoe; he was laying knocked-out cold so close to the track that one of his hands was on it, right in the impact zone. They pulled an ambulance up, right in the impact zone, got out and worked on the guy like there was no danger, and never stopped the race. Gotta keep the day on schedule I guess.
There should be 3 instances where the corner should be able to call red flag WITHOUT EXPLAINING ANYTHING TO ANYBODY:
1. Body on Track
2. Bike on Track
3. Fluid on Track
If the sanctioning bodies can't be certain that a cornerworker is smart enough to see that one of those three events has taken place and not stop the race unnecessarily, then they are not smart enough to work in a corner. I don't think there is any cornerworker who is not smart enough to be trained and entrusted with that much authority.
While people are busy explaining and thinking somebody is going to die.
Max McAllister
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 16, 2002 05:34 PM
8/16/2002
AMA Pro Racing: Aaron Yates Not In Trouble For Lying On Track At VIR
Copyright 2002, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
By David Swarts
Team Blimpie Yoshimura Suzuki's Aaron Yates will not be fined money, assessed a points penalty, disqualified, suspended or disciplined in any official way for lying on an active racetrack at VIR during the AMA Superbike race Sunday, August 11, according to AMA Pro Racing Superbike Operations Manager Ron Barrick.
A few laps into the re-started Superbike race, Eric Bostrom, Mat Mladin, Kurtis Roberts and Yates were running practically nose-to-tail when Roberts lost the rear of his RC51 and spun out in the short transition between Virginia International Raceway's turns four and five. Yates reacted very quickly and rode off the track to his left to avoid Roberts and the spinning Honda. Once in the short run-off area, Yates tucked the front and crashed his Suzuki GSX-R750 before sliding into inflatable air barriers at a relatively low speed.
After assessing the damage to his bike, Yates returned to the track where he laid down, "spread eagle" in the middle of turn five as Roberts' bike caught fire. Yates stayed on the track for a few seconds and got up as a pack of three bikes approached.
In the background of Speed Channel's video of the incident, cornerworkers can be seen ceasing to wave their yellow flag and going for their red flag to stop the race. Immediately after the race was stopped, Yates returned to his Suzuki, picked it up and began to make plans to return to pit lane and make the re-start, which he did, restarting dead last from pit lane.
When asked about the incident shortly after the race Sunday night at VIR, Barrick said, "The cornerworkers had already called in requesting for a stoppage before he laid down anyway. So they were calling 'red' for the bike being on the track."
Asked if any official action would be taken against Yates, Barrick responded, "No. I'd like to talk to him about it, but no. We don't have any rules on that specifically, but obviously, it's not something you want riders to think is OK to do. I don't know what his motive was. I haven't talked to him. I don't know if you have any comments from him or not. I don't know if it was just that he saw his bike was OK and wanted to go back in the race."
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 23, 2002 07:41 PM
Well its over, the AMA has successfully pissed off everyone.
I heard that 2 well known factory riders are having it out with Honda over this.
It seems they want to boycot ama racing for 2003.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/index.html
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 23, 2002 08:30 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 23 Aug 2002 21:31
I still have my AMA Pro License! I raced with and feel friends with Bill Himmelsbach and his son and wife! It took "2" People getting Killed at Brainard (in one weekend)before they changed the Pit exit! Charlie watson was the Last Carring Person to control a race! The expression changed to "It now takes 2 deaths to make changes!
My Peave is they put Chacaines (how ever you spell it) all around the race course! Charlotte is the best example I have ever seen! I raced there when there were no Chacaines and only saw one bad accident there (The first time ever we raced there)! They then put in 1 then 2 chacaines on the back straight a way to make it safe! If that is to make it safe, then why do they park the ambulances there and have all of the accidents there??
AT Elkhart Lake Wisconsin, I got Black Flagged during the main event while I was in 12th place in the Formula 1 national! I came in the pitts and they just ignored me! Finally I jumped on someone and they said "We told them to flagg the next person over the hill! You must have passed him! Go on back and race!" So for the next couple of laps, I went down the front straight standing on the pegs giving the flagger the finger! When the race was over, I went to the stand and stopped the awards because they had not handled what they did to me! At the next race they came up with the Bike number on a black board when the black flag was thrown! I told them they had better throw a white flag for me the next time if they wanted me to come in! 
I totally agree with the person about the "Corner" worker on a Sundy Stroll over to the fire and the only thing he seemed interested in was keeping hold of the handle! On Roberts bike, they did not seem to know how to operate them! I have Waaaaay to much to talk about!
Last thing was, some of you have seen my Handle about making History at Daytona! As far as I know, I am still the only Black person to sit on the Pole for any kind of race there and the only one so far to qualify and finish the Daytona 200! A Magazine named Black Biker did an article on me and asked why there were not more Blacks in Road racing! I gave then a copy of the 1949 rule book that they published and I state "All racers must be members of the association and membership is limited to WHITE Persons Only"! Of course they were up set about that but for some reason knew better than to talk to me about it "Officially!! I was 43 years Old when I stopped racing (Them saying that the 1000 CC Bikes were too fast and dangerous and moved to 750 CC! and what will they be doing for next year?? going back to 1000 CC now that they are faster than ever!! Do not get me started!!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted August 24, 2002 07:29 AM
I had hope that the 3 recently elected AMA Board members would have addressed this. Obviously, it is a bigger uphill battle against the entrenched status quo then either they or we (the AMA general membership) had previously thought.
Their election platform was centered around the safety of the racers. This latest FU also painfully illustrates that there are so many more issues besides air fences that desperatly need to be addressed. I have not lost faith in our newly elected leadership, but I do hope that they are kickin' some serious board ass over this (and past) events.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 24, 2002 08:54 AM
heh clint fleckenstein..heh ive ridden with him before at gap ;P
good guy. i ought to go to wherever that was posted and stir up some trouble ;P
where'd that come from?
  
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Puma Cat
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted August 24, 2002 04:55 PM
This in incredible.....and completely typical of the AMA. They are such a fucked up sanctioning body....I still can't believe that there even HAS to be an AMA AirFence fund in the first place. Kudos to John Ulrich for starting the process of making tracks safer. The fact that Bill Himmelsbach laid in agony for 16 minutes before receiving medical attention is unbelievable...there is no excuse that anyone could give that would acceptable as to why this happened.
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted August 27, 2002 10:59 AM
The AMA has been screwed up a long time. I finally gave up on them w/the Edmonson issue. Their blatant illegal business actions & frivolous lawsuits by high-up board members ended my wasting money. They need to blow out that Youngblood guy & several others. The continuing deliberate ignoring of obvious safety issues within the racing body (that has gone on for decades now) will not change unless we force it to change.
Until the membership gets upset enough to do something about it, I'm not coming back. It's a shame as I'd like to invest in a National group that promotes the sport; but I feel my money will just be squandered as their track record has proven time & time again. How many million did we lose on the Edmonson suit? How many dollars (& deaths/injuries) does it take for all of you to be convinced?
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted August 27, 2002 01:01 PM
We are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. When you think of all the stupid ideas that Big Brother has come up with concerning our sport (inflating rider suits, airbags on bikes, outriggers so we can't tip over, etc.) I'm damn glad the AMA is available to help. As a sanctioning body they, of course, suck. But until we get a better voice in Congress I have to fund the only voice we have. I would like to see a different lobbying group but it will never happen. Most riders have no interest in watching our collective backs. Sad, but true.
____________
If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
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daveindaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted August 27, 2002 01:06 PM
For the record I have a problem with what happened too.
My thoughts are there are also issues with every sanctioning body involved in racing. I live in an area that thrives on issues with one of the biggest. Send your comments to the AMA, don't sit and bitch, try to help. It still is one of the few organizations left that you can actually contact. I respect the people commenting in this post and it needs attention so make yourself heard. I am a member of the AMA and always will be, but I DO AGREE there are problems that need to be improved and I do what I can to help with that. It's far from being the best organization but it's the best one going. There are lots of topics that aren't as scandalous and headline grabbing as racing accidents that are being fought well by the AMA that help out every motorcyclist. Unlike other racing organizations the AMA isn't all about racing. They spend time and money with motorcyle rights and legislation. Maybe it's time to officially spin off the AMA Pro Racing from being so closely tied to the AMA in general.
I like John Ulrich's ideas and what he was trying to do in theory, but I also see he has a big interest in making things work to his advantage. I'm still watching that deal with skepital optimism.
FYI -
Kevin Schwantz resigned his position because he relocated out of the area he was serving. It is unrelated to the racing incidents.
Ed Youngblood resigned back in 1999.
Estimates on the cost of the Edmondson lawsuits are 9 million.
____________
DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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