twista
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posted March 14, 2008 10:15 AM
Yet another question..
can over tightening the rear wheel axle nut prevent the wheel from spinning normal,, if so,, what is a good rule of thumb to the tightening technic?,, also any tricks of the trade to alighning the front and rear wheel or does it happen magically?
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dougmeyer
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posted March 14, 2008 03:23 PM
It does not happen magically. It needs to be done purposefully and carefully at least once so you can determine the error of the index lines on your particular bike.
As far as tightening the axel nuts, if all the spacers are properly installed, you can't really overtighten the nut (except to strip it). The spacers and inner bearing races just stack up to the right clamping loads. The inner sleeve keeps you from pinching the bearings out of line.
The front axel has a specific order of assembly into the forks. Make sure you check the book on that one so you get it in correctly.
You might want to have a look at my frame check article for a little more info.
http://www.bikeland.org/bridges/the-home-depot-frame-check.html
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Texas12R
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posted March 14, 2008 03:24 PM
torque spec on rear and front axle nut is 92 ft/lbs.
Not much help but I would be suspiscious if the rear is difficult to turn.....
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NOX
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posted March 14, 2008 06:01 PM
I have never torqued mine......, i let it spin and tighten until there is some resistance at the rear wheel......., than back off a hair.......
I would not recomend this for a bike that actually turns..........
It is just one of those little things that helps you go just a hair faster on the drag strip.......
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zrexpilot
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posted March 14, 2008 06:25 PM
 Edited By: zrexpilot on 14 Mar 2008 19:39
I am one who believes the rear wheel should be aligned with the frame not the front wheel.
Its called thrust angle. Do a search on thrust angle. Best way is to measure from swingarm pivot point to axel. center to center. And i tighten it just like nox said
Bikes dont have a steering alignment, but they must push straight with centerline.
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twista
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posted March 14, 2008 07:01 PM
Edited By: twista on 14 Mar 2008 20:03
zrexpilot,, does your bike go into turns or is it strip use also,, if it DOES take turns,, then i might try the snug when resistance type setup,, otherwise im not sure if thats the way to go,, in the past i would use the tool bag axle nut wrench,, and crank it till it wouldnt get any tighter while lining up the last possible cotter pin hole..
and what method do you use to do the swingarm to axle measurement,, there is the rearsets and pipe in the way to contend with?
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dougmeyer
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posted March 14, 2008 07:02 PM
Without the brake touching it should never be "difficult to turn". If the axel nut torque effects the rotating force the center spacer may be peened over and becoming shorter.
You're right zrex. It's most important for both tires and the steering stem axis to be on the same centerline regardless of their relative position to the frame at large. In fact some bikes are inherently offset a bit, which I've always chalked up as an effort to have the CG on the centerline.
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twista
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posted March 14, 2008 07:08 PM
Edited By: twista on 14 Mar 2008 20:09
what determines which way to shift the center spacer,, doesnt the chain play a role in the drag of the wheel? doesnt the center spacer,, rest against the C clip on the one side??
am i confusing myself more than need be? is that you john wayne,, is this me?
going to read on thrust angle BRB!
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NOX
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posted March 14, 2008 07:20 PM
I am not talking about hard to turn, but it does let the wheel turn more free........
All you have to do is win by an inch.....
Even if you are bracket racing, you want to be the quicker bike, so the other guy has the chance to screw up first.......
Even if I dial 9.10 and the other guy dials 9.12, thats enough. He gets the chance to red light first......
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zrexpilot
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posted March 14, 2008 07:22 PM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 14 Mar 2008 20:23
Mine is a straight liner, but I do my street bikes the same way.
I believe you should just put the rear wheel on the marks on the swing arm, if you cant measure it from the pivot point. Stay clear away from any strings or lasers. theres much more inolved.
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twista
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posted March 14, 2008 07:24 PM
Edited By: twista on 14 Mar 2008 20:25
Understood,, just back from reading,, this was pretty informative,, also won a MAC Torque Wrench on the ebay for $68.00 bucks,, goes to 100 foot LBS. enough for the clutch basket and the axel,, amongst other things..
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4
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dougmeyer
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posted March 15, 2008 07:28 AM
Well sure the marks work. Sometimes they're perfect. I don't go through "all that" on every bike. Twista was asking about "tricks".......
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zrexpilot
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posted March 15, 2008 07:42 AM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 15 Mar 2008 08:47
quote:
Well sure the marks work. Sometimes they're perfect. I don't go through "all that" on every bike. Twista was asking about "tricks".......
I am gonna have to disagree with you. I feel there is no other way to aling the rear wheel of a bike other than swingarm pivot point to axel. I believe if someone lines it up with the front wheel its all wrong. I firmly believe in thrust angle.
muzzy sells this tool for coreect alignment
Incorrect wheel alignment can rob power and the factory marks may not be precise enough for high racing speeds. This precision tool makes setting the distance from the swing arm pivot to the axle an easy, precise operation. Just adjust the axle until the conical tips fit equally on both sides. (Requires hollow or center drilled axles.) This tool can also easily be used as suspension sag gauge. Center it on the axle and pick a point on the chassis. Adjust, and check again. The graduated scale on the rod is much easier to use than a tape measure.
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twista
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posted March 15, 2008 07:49 AM
Im Liking this Tool,, what does it fit in the HEX hole on the Swingarm and the Axle Nut on the Rear,, might just have to get one to have peace of Mind that i am getting everything that is owed to me LOL,, thanxz for that post ZREX!
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twista
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posted March 16, 2008 05:27 PM
Doug,, above you mentioned pinching the bearings out of line,, what does that mean,, i started a thread asking a question about the inner sleeve,, and how far to set the one bearing on the opposite side of the wheel from the circlip side,, does the bearing need to be pushed in until it hits the sleeve,, should there be a little gap? i put the bearing in on one side all the way,, and this allows for the circlip to go on and then the seal,, on the otherside,, i set the bearing in until it was a 1/16 of an inch from touching the inner sleeve and then put the seal on flush with the hub,, put on the spacers,, and tightened her down while spinning the wheel and didnt notice any sign of her binding up,, do you think that is adequate? or did i need to have the bearing right up against the sleeve? thanx for the help!
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dougmeyer
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posted March 17, 2008 07:57 AM
zrex
I know- I helped design that tool.
What part about lining up the wheels do you think negates them being square with the swingarm pivot,. I agree that that is an essential part of the package.
Twista,
Absolutely - the bearings should be bottomed into the bearing bore in the wheel. Ultimately the center sleeve should have a "slip fit" between them. That is, it shouldn't rattle around but if you go in there with your finger you can usually mover it slightly side to side, Sometime not so easy, but the bearings should bottom in the wheel before they pinch the sleeve and the sleeve should not have any appreciable end to end clearance. You probably accomplished that by default when you tightened down the whole assembly. My guess is that you just finished pushing the bearing into the bore when you torqued the nut. At least I hope that's what happened.....
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted March 18, 2008 07:46 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 18 Mar 2008 08:47
quote:
zrex
I know- I helped design that tool.
What part about lining up the wheels do you think negates them being square with the swingarm pivot,. I agree that that is an essential part of the package.
Twista,
Absolutely - the bearings should be bottomed into the bearing bore in the wheel. Ultimately the center sleeve should have a "slip fit" between them. That is, it shouldn't rattle around but if you go in there with your finger you can usually mover it slightly side to side, Sometime not so easy, but the bearings should bottom in the wheel before they pinch the sleeve and the sleeve should not have any appreciable end to end clearance. You probably accomplished that by default when you tightened down the whole assembly. My guess is that you just finished pushing the bearing into the bore when you torqued the nut. At least I hope that's what happened.....
Doug
Dr. Doug, I am enjoying this! There was a HUGE thing on ZRXOA over wheel alignment, FOr all of my bikes I make sure that both wheels are in alignment. It all started when Rob North made my SuperBike Frame and then made a Swingarm with excentric Adjustors and no marks. That is when I made my alignement tool (Before Lasers were cheap). When my friend got his ZRX it wanted to run wide on Right turns and fall in on the left turns. When I checked the wheels the rear was turned to the right and after doing the alignment I found that the "MARKS" were off by about 1/3 of a mark. Several people said that the factory marks was what I should have used. The good news to me was that the Bike went straight and did not run wide or Fall in to the turns.
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zrexpilot
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posted March 18, 2008 08:28 AM
quote:
Dr. Doug, I am enjoying this! There was a HUGE thing on ZRXOA over wheel alignment, FOr all of my bikes I make sure that both wheels are in alignment.
I remember that discussion and it seems you still have no clue on how a bike is suppose to track.
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VincentHill
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posted March 18, 2008 12:34 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 18 Mar 2008 13:36
Except for the fact that I have a 1 track "Motorcycle" and you have a 2 track "MotorCar"!! What is there not to understand??
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zrexpilot
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posted March 18, 2008 01:08 PM
You seem to think a motorcycle has steering alignment, and its adjustment is the rear wheel. You consistently fail to understand that the rear axel has to be square with the swingarm pivot axel. You are still ligning up the rear with the front wheel and fail to understand that some bikes have an offset in the rear wheel.
The only way to straighten a bike is through the frame . You cant just cock the rear wheel and say it's good.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 19, 2008 10:21 AM
zrexpilot,
I think when you say "lining up with the front" you are referring to centerlines, right?
If so, all true. But would you not agree that it is important to have them both pointing straight ahead at the same time? I think you would.
Note to all: this discussion could almost ONLY come from a ZRXer because the rear wheel IS offset about an inch from the front. (this is only on the 1200 right, pilot? I think the 1100's are lines up are they not? Or do I have it backwards....?)
Didn't you used to have a ZRX Vincent?
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted March 19, 2008 12:33 PM
Still do! We Both have one and the 1200 is "Off Set: to clear the wider Rear Rim and tire! The 1100's were (In my estimation) aligned properly. Rear tire centered in the swingarm and the swingarm in the Center of the bike and both wheels centered on each other. The 1200 all of this is not true and I do not think that the 1200 turns the same as the 1100 with the Off sent wheels!
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twista
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posted March 19, 2008 01:23 PM
OK,, i know this thread has been going quite a while now,, but i have one last question!
if i use this alignment tool i purchased,, it will ensure that my rear wheel is TRUE with the swingarm,, so my question is sprocket alignment,, is it true that if the wheel is aligned to the arm,, there is no need to align the sprockets correct? i cant see how both can be achieved so that is why i ask,, and if a tool is used to do the rear to arm,, what can you do for the front or should i nopt worry about it,,?? thanx again!
Unless the use of aftermarket sprockets throw off the alignment and need to be shimmed or something?? if that is the case,, do i need a sprocket laser?,, and im still wondering what to do with the front wheel?
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VincentHill
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posted March 19, 2008 01:56 PM
Sprocket alignment is important specially with Coated aluminun Rear Sprockets. When I have everything in alignment (Even if the Marks are off) the Front and rear wheel are centered and the sprocks run through the Middle of the chain. One of the first ways to know if something is not right is when you see one side of the rear sprocket with a wear pattern.
Saying that, when you are dealing with after Market Arms and you have the wheels in alignment, I have had to shim the front sprocket to achieve this. It is also easy to make a mistake by assuming! SOme Sprockets are off set (There is that word again) toward the Inside if the cases. The ZRX is one of those motorcycles where the countershaft Sprocket looks like it goes on Backward or with an aftermarket ones you use the Spacer on the OUTSIDE of the sprocket Next to the Nut
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dougmeyer
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posted March 19, 2008 03:40 PM
Twista,
If you have all stock parts or correct aftermarket ones and they are correctly installed, it is very unlikely that the sprockets will be appreciably out of line. Having said that, it never hurts to check, or at least keep an eye on the sprockets for signs of wear on one or the other side. And I HAVE shimmed a sproket or two over the years, but this has always been on a bike I was "building up" from parts.
A word on chains and sprockets- when everything is correct, the side plates should not contact the sprockets on either side. The chain should find its center with clearance on both sides. Also keep your eye on the sprocket teeth. The first sign of chain stretch is wear on the sprocket teeth causing them to develop a hook shape. This is because when the chain "pitch" (or distance between the centers of the rollers on the chain) is correct, the rollers smoothly roll into, then out of the teeth, rotating on the axle pin in the chain. When the chain stretches the rollers don't roll in and out, but instead slide down into the tooth and then slide back out rubbing on the face of the tooth rather than rolling on it.
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