Woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 17, 2008 06:47 AM
Is it Broke...?
Out on my ZX12-R today - got stuck in a huge traffic queue with not even enough room for a bike to slither by. About 15 minutes worth of stopped and less than walking pace. Lights on - heated jacket on (its cold for Christ's sake). Then It Stopped. Apparently run out of electricity.... Pressing the starter re-set the trip computer. Just the death rattle on the starter. Strangely unable to select any gear other than 1st or neutral.
Took lots of attempts at a push start courtesy of a Nice Harley Rider (I take back everything I ever said...), and it all worked just fine and wonderful. It's a miracle. Anyway - ride 20 miles back home with all electricals switched off. The battery is at about 12.5 volts, engine off. Engine on shows 14 volts on tickover with lights on & heated jacket on, so it appears that all is well. However, I have a long trip planned around Europe - Southern Germany, Italy, Switzerland, South of France, West Coast of France etc. And I don't need any more excitement than the excitement I've planned to get...
So - do I live in hope, and just bugger off, or is there something I'd better check, or just make sure the insurance covers bike repatriation...? All helpful comments appreciated.
  
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted February 17, 2008 07:45 AM
You didn't say what year bike you have. Just off the top of my head I would check your alternator connector. These are notorious for going bad. There are 3 wires if just one goes bad you still get the same voltage but not the same current meaning under heavy electrical load and low rpm your going to be draining the battery.
The alternator plug is located on the left side of the engine just below the alternator housing. What happens is sometimes the positive crankcase pressure blows oil down the cable into the plug causing the contacts to go hi resistance and heat up and eventually melt.
There is a recall notice for this on the older bikes.
On the other hand your alternator may be fine and you were just drawing more amps than your bike could handle at prolonged low rpm. You might want to consider a new battery before going on your trip if yours is more than 3 or 4 years old.
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lgm118icbm
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted February 17, 2008 07:56 AM
I doubt it is broken. The alternator is rated at 35amps but thats at 5krpms. As the revs drop so does your bikes ability to recharge itself and power your heated vest.
The inability to select 2nd gear from a stop is your positive neutral finder, and its functioning perfectly normal. Thats what its supposed to do.
I use my heated vest and grips all the time and you have a few options. Depending on how old your battery is, it may be getting weak and might need to be replaced. But either way, you are using more juice than your bike is producing at low speeds in traffic.
What I did was install HID headlights which only use 35 watts a piece instead of the stockers 60 watts a piece which gives me an extra 50 watts of security.
You can also install a battery monitor on your bike so you can monitor your battery and if it gets low, switch off your heated gear.
http://murpskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_92&products_id=186&osCsid=f6ddbdc01624e7c3a581f475b6aa5c8b
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Costa Mesa, Ca
03 ZX-12R
03 Z-1000SC
04 ZX-6R
98 Concours
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Woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 17, 2008 08:05 AM
Hi RR
The bike is an 01 (A2 I think) with 14,000 miles. The jacket resistance is about 5 ohms. The battery is about a year old, but the immobiliser/ alarm pull it down, especially in the winter. Looking through the opening in the lower faring, I see a rubber plug below the alternator cover at 6 o'clock. Is that the plug I need to check? Just a visual or do I need to do clever stuff...? Does it just pull off?
The surprising thing is that I just checked the battery charger - the Optimate 3 shows 'good' - ie fully charged in about 3 hours or less. From past experience, a well discharged battery takes a whole day with the Optimate.
Hi lgm118icbm
Thanks for the link to the battery monitor. I like it - I'll see if I can get one in the Sunny UK. It'll give me information, and information is confidence. The bugger wouldn't get 2nd gear even rolling, until the engine fired. I have had this bike from new, so I know, mostly, what normal is...
Those low draw lights seem a good idea too - I'll investigate. Are they brighter than standard? Think of the extra power left for propulsion rather than generating electricity. Ooooo...
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lgm118icbm
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted February 17, 2008 12:05 PM
The plug you are looking for is on the left side under your tail plastic, 3 wires. You'll probably see a little bit of oil in there that collects over time. The oil increases the resistance in the connector and many have had it melt on them. lots of us have had this problem one time or another. If you are affected, you'll have to cut out the connector and solder the wires together to eliminate the "wicking" effect.
Yea the headlights are fantastic, much brighter than stock but they require more wiring and their associated ballasts and ignitors physically take up a lot of room.
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Costa Mesa, Ca
03 ZX-12R
03 Z-1000SC
04 ZX-6R
98 Concours
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twista
Zone Head
" Get up, and Stay up ! "
Posts: 797
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posted February 17, 2008 12:16 PM
Yea the HIDs are NICE!
lgm gave me some tech support on wiring mine up,, came out tits!
thanx again over there in IRVINE LOL
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" When in Doubt, There is no Doubt !"
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warbird
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted February 17, 2008 04:20 PM
Woadrage, just for extra insurance, remove your battery from the bike and let the Optimate 3 do it's thing for 24 hours or so. The "desulfate" mode of the Optimate 3 is amazing..........but it won't go into that mode if it detects a wiring harness........ie..... if your battery is hooked up on the bike. It's worth a shot...........I have seen the Optimate 3 do some amazing things to battery's that were considered "long gone". The battery must be off the bike though. Good luck............. 
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I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 17, 2008 09:24 PM
I agree with warbird, BUT did you say how old your battery is? There comes a time when thay just won't come all the way back. Maybe it's time for a new one.......
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 18, 2008 02:36 AM
Hi Guys - thanks for all your help and suggestions.
The battery monitor - found a cheap DIY one which looks right:
http://www.futurlec.com/CarBatteryMonitor.shtml
Also found a cheap (and I like cheap) HID light kit - any comment on this for suitability? The bulbs reciprocate, which is novel.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/diane-shop (search shop for H4)
Anyway - back to The Problem (bike stopped in traffic, and then Would Not Go..).
The Optimate says the batter is GOOD - fully charged on the bike in 2-3 hours. Can I rely on that or does GOOD not mean what I think it means...?
Checked those 2 plugs under the seat. Looks as dry as a Nun under there, but couldn't pull the plugs off for a proper check. I'm old enough to have broken lots of good things while pulling them to bits for an inspection, so I leave well alone when I can. The white wires look in good shape - no sign of overheating or anything untoward. It would be nice to put a tester on the wires - any guidance about separating the (very dry) plugs..? Do I just grab the plug with pliers and pull? (I employ this same technique with women, and that doesn't work either...).
I read lots of stuff about oil getting up the conductor bundle - if it does this then I guess the oil would partially insulate the plug pin connection reducing contact area and then get hot.... Anyway - this does not appear to be happening.
Still twitchy about a bike stopping without an explanation I have full confidence in. Assuming the alternator is putting up 14 volts under the operating load, I can't imagine the battery draining to a level that doesn't support life as we know it over a period of 15 minutes or so. I guess I'll just have to keep running it and see if it's healed up.
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lgm118icbm
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted February 19, 2008 06:23 AM
It wouldn't surprise me that you totally drained it with your vest. Your alternator makes barely enough to power the bike at idle. At idle on my zx6r, the alt doesn't make enough juice to power the turn signals when the high beam is on.
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Costa Mesa, Ca
03 ZX-12R
03 Z-1000SC
04 ZX-6R
98 Concours
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lgm118icbm
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted February 19, 2008 06:26 AM
quote:
Yea the HIDs are NICE!
lgm gave me some tech support on wiring mine up,, came out tits!
thanx again over there in IRVINE LOL
Anytime Vic, glad we were able to get them working for ya!
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Costa Mesa, Ca
03 ZX-12R
03 Z-1000SC
04 ZX-6R
98 Concours
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 19, 2008 06:39 AM
Bloody hell Icybum, sounds like you've got bigger problems than me...
Over the 5 years I've owned this bike, I have never had this problem, & I know I have 14 volts with everything powered, at tickover. So it seems to me that with the battery measured at 12.5v, and the alternator at 14v, all electricals on, then the alternator is keeping up with the power demand, unless I'm missing something. I'm beginning to wonder if the battery terminals might be coming loose. I'll get out my gynocologist's kit, and get them checked.
I asked Optimate if GOOD means 'the battery is fine and you don't need a new one', but no reply yet.
Do you know of a non-destructive way of getting those alternator plugs off so I can check the cables?
Cheers M8
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 19, 2008 08:01 AM
Update - just ferreted out the battery, and discovered (I think) the problem..
The answer is - it was broke (a bit)...
The white multi-connector plug just behind the battery cover was not pushed into the retaining clip properly. When the cover came off it was clearly on the piss. I guess therein lies the fault. I'm pleased to have found it now, rather than half way up an Alp....
Next problem is - to check the tappets or not. These have never been touched in 14,000 miles. My dealer wants £450 (double it for dollars) just to check them - more if something needs doing....
So - is it a good DIY job, and do you have any hints, tips, or suggestions?
Cheers
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted February 19, 2008 02:09 PM
It's not too hard to check them but like the dealer says, if you need to reshim one you're talking pain in the ass as the cams have to come out. You'd better be pretty confident you can retime the cams though it's really not that difficult if you have a manual laying around. It will eat up some time working in those close confines. Last two 12s I checked at about the same mileage as yours didn't need any shimming but....
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 19, 2008 04:05 PM
So - it's like Dirty Harry said..... "Are you feelin' lucky"....
With the way life's treated me so far, I'd say all 8 exhaust valves have burnt seats. Or - if I take it to bits, I'll 4k it up, and discover all was well if I'd left it alone.
Head I win, Tails you lose...
How long do you reckon it'll take for a tappet check - first time round?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted February 20, 2008 07:02 AM
quote:
How long do you reckon it'll take for a tappet check - first time round?
How big are your hands 
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted February 20, 2008 09:40 AM
if you take a lil more time and pull off the throttle bodies and the radiator + front motor mounts it goes MUCH faster (and if you have little hands...)
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 20, 2008 10:13 AM
I was hoping for a shortcut, not an epic... Is that really the quickest way for a tappet check? - I guess I'll need a paddock stand and a jack under the engine? How many hours d'you reckon? Plus I guess a day added if any shims need changing?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted February 20, 2008 10:58 AM
you do not need a jack under the motor, the rear mounts will hold the motor when the front are removed.
You can do the job without removing that much stuff, but it is very difficult to assure you are getting good "readings" because you cannot really see what you are doing on many of the valves. Lotsa folks do the valve checking without removing all the stuff i do.
how many hours? depends 100% on how experienced a mechanic you are.
2-3 hours + a lot more if there are issues.
you have a manual, eh?
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 20, 2008 02:21 PM
Yeah - I have a manual, but only for use as a last resort....
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 20, 2008 07:36 PM
Use it first, then you won't get to "the last resort".
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted February 20, 2008 09:44 PM
if the bike is'nt drag raced often or ran hard banging high rpms every time you ride (like me) you could go 20,000 and still not need adjustment.it's your call.
your stealership needs to be kicked in the balls.
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woadrage
Parking Attendant
Work hard, play not enough
Posts: 13
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posted February 21, 2008 03:23 AM
It's like I said - the Stealership want 450 Good British Pounds just for checking, and then an undisclosed amount if any re-shimming is required. The Stealership are Hopeless - they have had my bike 4 times, and each time it comes back with missing fasteners.... I'm not even confident that if I give them £450 that they will actually check all the clearances properly.
The missing bits... Battery compartment (3 bolts missing). Fuel tank cover (Hex bolt missing under the seat). Front faring (throughbolt missing allowing the faring to bob up and down). Ashtray (2 hex bolts missing). Various grommets and minor plastic fasteners missing. Would you allow these guys to mess with your engine? Probably come back as an 8 valve...
They are either helping me to lighten it, or they are building a new bike from customers parts.
The bike rarely sees 10K revs - the roads here are narrow and twisty, and loads of fun, but it you make a habit of FAST on a road where it's easy to go fast, you'll be spending a long time on the bus, once they let you out of jail... Fast touring is Europe is where it's at... cruising at 140-150mph. Once came up to the North Coast of France from Dijon on a Blackbird and never dropped below 160. Hot as hell - got lots of flies on my football shirt... Now I think even the Froggies are tightening up on FAST. And the Dutch can confiscate your vehicle if you're more than double the speed limit - all the more incentive to piss off.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 21, 2008 02:27 PM
I'd stay far away from those (stealership) boys.
Really, get a mate who's done a shim adjust before (on anything) to help and you can do this yourself. You need a good set of tools, a comfortable place to work and The Book.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted February 21, 2008 06:06 PM
right on. and if you get stumped on something just post for your answer and a little extra dialog........hey it's all FREE
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