Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 28, 2008 04:46 PM
ignition timming ?
would anyone care to elaborate on ignition timming curves for a dual map
one for a stock bore and stroke Full Muzzy piped , BMC filtered n/a 05 zx12R
one for the same config with a 40-50 shot of dry nos (Muzzy kit)
Im running the dj pc3usb, ignition module, hub, quickshifter, map switch.
Or should I just make an appointment to see JC in Round Rock?
As always your input is appreciated............Michael
  
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 28, 2008 08:05 PM
Well perhaps Ive been mislead to believe that with additional timming without nos
there are substantial gains in rate of acceleration.....while on nos at elevated rpms
there is a buffer with no advance perhaps even a slight amout of retard?
Comments welcome............even the redundant..........
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 29, 2008 05:58 AM
 Edited By: KZScott on 29 Jan 2008 06:00
this is the map i was running NA with a full Muzzy and K&Ns (01 with a power commander 3 R). its not a custom map, just a "good one" I got from a board member
this is the same map that i modified according to Schnitz's tech corner for a 40 shot. it also has VH's mod to the zero throttle pos to help cool the bike after a nitrous run
edit, oh and it has less timing at the low end to help hot starting
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Heavy AK
Novice Class
Posts: 64
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posted January 29, 2008 11:40 AM
I'm certainly interested in this one because I want to know what gains to expect from ignition advancing. I'm not too well versed on the subject...
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A little GAS is a good thing!
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 29, 2008 02:26 PM
Thanks for your input Scott! It is generous of you to forward the maps 
I was wondering if I should run +4 across the board.
I also wonder if I should leave the timming at 0 below 1750 for cooling purposes
I may have been mislead about early advance causing the engine to create more heat.
Maybe Mr Hill will drop in
or even Doug Meyer
Johnny,Karl, Sal.......I know there are lots of guys that know this stuff and can explain and bring the facts to the front
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 29, 2008 03:19 PM
np, i got it for "free" so i dont mind. its not a custom map by any means, but a good running map.
please note i didnt try the nitrous map, i just created it based on the map i was using, and how much Schnitz recommends for a 40 shot (15%richer in the area where you use nitrous) and i backed off of the timing advance progressively to 1 degree retarded instead of all at once for the nitrous. VH walked me through it when i had any questions, he really knows his stuff!
i was running 91 octane pump gas with that map, 4 degrees would probly be fine at that, but i felt pretty conservative and stuck with 3
oh and the added fuel to the zero part of the map(we'll refer to that as the VH mod) is supposed to make a nice flame come out the exhaust when you are slowing down. which looks "cool" as its cooling your pistons. 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 29, 2008 08:45 PM
Texas,
You were mis-informed. Excessively retarded timing will usually increase coolant temps not reduce them. But remember, your zero is only "no change" to stock timing. You would have to reduce the advance to a true zero or ATDC value to experience this. Like most parameters in a well set up engine, timing values have a narrow range of "correctness".
Also when at anything other than max throttle (peak torque, and the resulting peak pressure) you move away from the danger zones and have a lot af latitude.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 30, 2008 03:13 AM
Thanks for your input Mr Meyer. It is always appreciated!
Perhaps someday I will no longer be mis-informed 
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 30, 2008 03:35 AM
Edited By: entropy on 30 Jan 2008 03:42
here's a ign map for you!! from 2000rpm up
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 6 6
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 6 6
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 8 8
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 8 8
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 6 6
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 8 8
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 8 8
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 6 6(8000rpm)
0 0 3 3 3 3 3 6 6(8500rpm)
0 0 4 4 4 4 4 8 8
0 0 4 4 4 4 4 8 8
0 0 5 5 5 5 5 6 6
0 0 5 5 5 5 5 6 6
0 0 5 5 5 5 5 8 8
0 3 5 5 5 5 5 8 8
0 3 5 5 5 5 5 7 7
0 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
0 3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 30, 2008 09:03 AM
would you try that on pump gas with "regular"compression Karl? (vs your c44 and 16:1ish)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 30, 2008 01:21 PM
Edited By: entropy on 30 Jan 2008 13:26
quote:
would you try that on pump gas with "regular"compression Karl? (vs your c44 and 16:1ish)
"try it", like on the track? nope.
I would however see how much ign adv = more hp on a dyno and go with that setting.
That map was made on a 4gas dyno, at 100% throttle in 6th gear in 500rpm steps.
we started at 4000rpm, 0 adv, did a 3-5 sec WOT step, then 3, then 6, then 8, then 10, even 12 sometimes
Andy found the adv setting which made the most hp, then varied fuel for best hp, then went up and down on adv looking for the best hp combo of timing & adv.
Used CO for rich/lean and monitored CO2 & total HC for detonation evidence.
Then we went to 4500 and so on; takes hours, with special attention around the tq "peak" at 8000-9500rpm.
After a bit we got better at zeroing in on what CO and AF (i logged it separately) = best hp, so things speed up with experience
260+/- 3-5 sec steps was pretty hard on the motor. I am amazed that one potato-chip seat is the only major damage lately. No detonation evidence when torn down on Jan 5.
I am convinced that this tune will give the best results at the Mile, but am still curious about the optimum tune for 1/4 mile where you are going thru gears almost right to the end.
The steady state load takes a ton more fuel to get best hp than the sweep tuning on a Dynojet. Which is best for 1/4 mile?????
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 30, 2008 02:55 PM
Thanks Karl:bighthumb
I was sure you had numbers to add. Thank you for giving us the results of what would have to be expensive and labor intensive experimentation.
I still think you should start your own series called "ZX Files" Im sure Scott and I would avid readers
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 30, 2008 03:17 PM
Texas,
I don't wanna bore folks with my endless, rambling tales, but i do love to experiment
I guess the point of my post is, don't be afraid of big ign adv #'s, but do yr testing carefully.
Also, Y2K, TChin. D Meyer, Andy, and Marc Salvisberg hisownself, all advised me to be careful with excessive advance at the tq peak.
Hey,
you coming down to the Mile, eh???
(i won't quit raggin' on ya! )
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KZScott
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posted January 30, 2008 04:45 PM
Karl, they dont have to read it if they dont want to 
I want front row tickets to your "ZX Files" did you even bother to "just" get a big bore kit when you started your quest for insane NA HP, or was the first mod the 1361 kit? lol how about a whole thread describing your combos and how they worked. it would probly become a drag bike zone sticky
oh, did you ever go back to look at AF ratio to see if i was right about it going all "funky" when you got detonation? i know you used a better method with the 4 gas dyno, just curious as i wont have acces to one when i do my own testing with a datalogger. i want to play with some timing, and some other stuff:P
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 30, 2008 05:08 PM
I was looking at another map i have. its supposed to be the Muzzy "race" map. Doug, did you make it a few years ago?
it has more advance than the one i was using and says to use min 92 octane gas...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 31, 2008 03:18 AM
Karl I hope I can make it this year......I just changed jobs which was one of the things
that kept me from doing a lot that I want to do.....but it also relieved me of most of my
disposable income I did get off the rotating shift.....
Still have some stuff to get done to the bike ,but Matt said he would give me a hand.
I do get three cases of free beer a month
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 31, 2008 07:42 AM
Michael,
job with less disposable income but 3 cases of beer a mo...
math seems to work out fine.
what kind of beer?
(not that i could tell the difference)
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted January 31, 2008 06:57 PM
Miller Light, Genuine Draft, High Life.....We have a deal to merge? with Coors or Brew the Silver bullet? Im not to clear or the deal.
Maybe I can trade a couple of cases for a case of Bud Light for you Karl !
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 31, 2008 07:21 PM
did i hear Bud?
haha i like the math Karl
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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