twista
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posted December 07, 2007 03:35 PM
Hate to bother U BUT
Since ive been getting feedback on my clutch issue questions, and it seems that the OIL was the culprit (fingers crossed) my question is,, what brand oil and what weights are being used in other member bikes,, i did a search but really didnt see what i was looking for... what is the first number/second number on the bottles represent.. right now im with Mobile 1 15/50 synthetic,, in NYC in the summer i had no problem,, but it seems that it doesnt like the cold weather.. INPUT?
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted December 07, 2007 03:50 PM
i use kawasaki oil from the stealership, 10w40, but Im going to try out royal purple this yr. read thru some of NOX's posts, he really seemed to like it. (my uncle has used it in his drag vette too with good results).
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twista
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posted December 07, 2007 04:12 PM
did some reading and it looks like if im gonna change it would be to either Amsoil or Motul especially after reading this Mobile 1 isnt bad either though the consistency of the Amsoil seems unsurpassed,, take into consideration that this is a post from AMSOIL.
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf
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kaw12
Expert Class
Posts: 172
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posted December 07, 2007 04:54 PM
i would use motul 300v.
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harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
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posted December 07, 2007 05:40 PM
I use royal purple 20-50 in the summer and 10-40 in the winter. Full synthetic.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 08, 2007 12:32 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 8 Dec 2007 00:33
I have used Kendall, Havoline, Castrol, Rotella, Mobil-1, Motul semisyn and 300v, Redline straight and multi synthetics, and am now using Royal Purple mainly because i like the color.
NO oil related difference in clutch performance during 800+/- 1/4 mile passes.
(i keep set-up/results notes on every pass)
Just my experience.
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted December 08, 2007 04:36 AM
I reserve the right to be wrong. I work on a 1100 hp air compressor as part of my job, five years ago we changed to Royal Purple for the motor bearings ( this electric motor has oil bath type babit bearings) It runs 3600 rpm, 24/7 and we now get about a year out of bearings. before we might get about six months.
I realize this is a different application but compaired to the other oils we tried the purple stuff
performed better than the other synthetics
and yes I use it in my slow 05 12 too. 
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VincentHill
Needs a life
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posted December 08, 2007 05:20 AM
I use Motul E-Tech 100 10 W 40! It is the Cheapest of the Motul Oils (You can find it for $6.95 a Quart and Free Shipping if you buy 15 Quarts at the Place I get mine) The difference in E-Tech and 300 V is 300V is more a "Racing" Oil that only uses Synthetic Esters where E-Tech is more of a Street / Race oil that uses 50% Esters and 50% Pao. Either one the difference in Motul and about every other oil is the Oil being made in France (There is something good in France for Oil) they use Grape Seed Oil in the Mix. Grape Seed oil has a Tenacity for clinging to everything. ALl of the Synthetics I used in the past "Specially" Mobil was the fact that they were SOO Slippery that when the engine was turned off, "ALL" of the oil drained back into the crank case and if the engine sat for a few days, I could hear the "DRY" SOund of no Oil in the engine for between 1 to 2 minutes on start up!
Non Synthetic Oil never drained like that and even if the bike sat for a month, I NEVER Heard those sounds. I believe this is true and backed up by the Oil Manufactures when Mobil went to a "Zero" Weight Oil in order to SPEED UP the Delivery of the Oil, specially when cold. Since Using Motul even after sitting for Months, It ALWAYS Starts up like the Oil is everywhere in the engine and NO NOISE is ever heard.
SHort Story, I made a mistake putting my clutch assembly in the Bike getting ready for Maxton and reversed the Washer behind the Clutch Basket. It is Tappered so that it will not ride on the Bearing outer race. I raced for the entire year an no problem (No metal in the oil no Blue parts from the extra heat) using the Motul. Then I changed Pistons and Rings and used SA Grade Non Detergent straight 30 weight oil (A Grade of Oil designed for cars of the 1930's or some compressors ) and break in the rings for about 50 miles and drain the Oil to put in the cheapest Regular Motorcycle Oil for the next 400 Miles. When I drained the oil I saw a LOT of metal and some was Blue. SO I took off the pan and side covers then started removing everything and found the Washer I had installed backward was trying to weld itself to the bearing! I took the engine out of the bike and replaced the bearing and washer.
What that told me was the Motul did not allow the 2 parts to touch the entire time! Maybe some of the other Syn Oils would have done the same, but maybe they would not have!
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twista
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posted December 08, 2007 07:07 AM
Vince this tapered washer was in a 12? dont tell me i couldve don that? Motul is synthetic right?
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VincentHill
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posted December 08, 2007 01:05 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 8 Dec 2007 13:31
quote:
Vince this tapered washer was in a 12? dont tell me i couldve don that? Motul is synthetic right?
As far as I know, I am the only one here that has Admitted to doing that!
Ester is the Base Stock for Synthetic and Pao is the other base stock for Synthetic Oil!
The first 3 below are what people call Dino Oil the last 2 are the Synthetic.
As far as I know, the Ester base stock is more expensive hence usually used in Race Only Oils. The Pao is cheaper (Still expensive) and usually the base in Street Synthetic Oil
There are five goups of base stocks, with each generally catagorized as follows (AMSOIL Synthetic Oil base stock is Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) with a small amount of ester to help control seal swell):
Base Oil
Category Manufacturing
Method Oil Characteristics
Group I Solvent Freezing Group I base oils are the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no uniformity. While some automotive oils on the market use Group I stocks, they are generally used in less demanding applications.
Group II Hydroprocessing and Refining Group II base oils are common in mineral-based motor oils currently available on the market. They have fair to good performance in lubricating properties such as volatility, oxidative stability and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point, cold crank viscosity and extreme pressure wear.
Group III Hydroprocessing and Refining Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of mineral oil refining of the base oil groups. Although they are not chemically engineered, they offer good performance in a wide range of attributes as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. They are commonly mixed with additives and marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic products. Group III base oil products have become more common in America during the past decade.
Group IV Chemical Reactions Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.
Group V As Indicated Group V base oils are used primarily in the creation of oil additives. Esters and polyolesters are both common Group V base oils used in the formulation of oil additives. Group V oils exhibit a wide variety of properties specific to each individual oil's formulation. Group V base oils are generally not used as base oils themselves, but add beneficial properties to other base oils.
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This takes a lot of space but you will see why I use Valvoline Syn in all of my Cars ALso note that all of the oils tested are PAO Based Synthetic and even Ams/Oil uses Some Ester in their Pao based oil to make it better. Imagine if it was a 50 / 50 mix?
There are five goups of base stocks, with each generally catagorized as follows (AMSOIL Synthetic Oil base stock is Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) with a small amount of ester to help control seal swell):
There are five goups of base stocks, with each generally catagorized as follows (AMSOIL Synthetic Oil base stock is Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) with a small amount of ester to help control seal swell):
Comparative API Motor Oil Testing
AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil (ATM) and 10 competing conventional and synthetic10W-30 motor oils were subjected to a series of API motor oil tests. The competing oils included synthetic-based Valvoline Synpower, Quaker State, Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil and Mobil SuperSyn Multi-Vehicle as well as petroleum-based Castro GTX Drive Hard, Mobil Drive Clean, Pennzoil with Purebase, Quaker State Peak Performance and Valvoline.
Seven intense API tests conducted on the motor oils. The Thin-Film Oxygen Uptake Test (TFOUT) measures the oxidation stability of engine oils. The High Temperature/High Shear Test (HTHS) measures a lubricant's viscosity under severe operating conditions. The NOACK Volatility Test measures the evaporation loss of oils in high temperature service. Pour Point indicates the lowest temperature at which a fluid will flow. Total Base Number (TBN) is the measurement of a lubricant's reserve alkalinity for combating acids. The Cold Cranking Simulator Test (CCS) measures a lubricant's viscosity at low temperatures and high shear rates. The Four-Ball Wear Test measures a lubricant's wear protection properties. The impressive test results show AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil outperformed the competitors in each test.
Thin-Film Oxygen Uptake (ASTMD-4742)
The Thin-Film Oxygen Uptake Test evaluates the oxidation stability of lubricating oils. A mixture of the test oil and chemistries found in gasoline engine operation (oxidized/nitrated fuel, soluble metals and distilled water) are placed in a test vessel, which is pressurized with oxygen and placed in a heated bath. Anti-oxidant breakdown is evident when the oxygen pressure in the vessel rapidly decreases. At this point, the induction time (break point) of the oil is recorded. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil had the highest induction time of all the tested oils. In fact, it didn't reach its break point in over 500 minutes of testing.
The superior oxidation stability of AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil allows it to effectively resist the formation of engine deposits and sludge, keeping engines running clean and efficient and extending oil life. It also resists thickening, maintaining its superior wear protection and lubricating properties and maximizing fuel efficiency.
High Temperature/High Shear (ASTM D-4683)
The High Temperature/High Shear Test measures a lubricant's viscosity under severe hightemperature and shear conditions that resemble highly-loaded journal bearings in fired internal combustion engines. In order to prevent bearing wear, it is important for a lubricant to maintain its protective viscosity under severe operating conditions. The minimum High Temperature/High Shear viscosity for a 30 weight oil is 2.9 cP. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil surpasses this minimum standard and displayed the highest High Temperature/High Shear viscosity in the group.
The superior viscosity retention of AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil in the face of severe temperature and shear conditions allows it to provide continuous, unsurpassed protection for engine bearings, extending equipment life and preventing wear.
NOACK Volatility (ASTM D-5800)
The NOACK Volatility Test determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions. A maximum of 15 percent evaporation loss is allowable to meet API SL and ILSAC GF-3 specifications. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil outperformed its nearest competitor by over 30 percent.
The extremely low volatility of AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil allows it to maintain its superior protective and performance qualities throughout extended drain intervals, even when faced with severe operating temperatures. In addition, oil consumption and emissions are minimized and fuel efficiency is maximized.
Pour Point (ASTM D-97)
The Pour Point Test determines the lowest temperature at which a lubricant will flow when cooled under prescribed conditions. The lower a lubricant's pour point, the better protection it provides in low temperature service. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil has the lowest pour point of the tested oils.
The low pour point of AMSOIL 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil allows it to maintain its fluidity in extremely low temperatures, reducing drag on moving vehicle parts, providing critical engine components with quick, essential lubrication and easing startup in cold temperatures. Wear is greatly reduced and equipment life is extended.
Total Base Number (ASTM D-2896)
Total Base Number (TBN) is the measurement of a lubricant's reserve alkalinity, which aids in the control of acids formed during the combustion process. The higher a motor oil's TBN, the more effective it is in suspending wear-causing contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids over an extended period of time. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil has the highest TBN of the tested oils.
The high TBN of AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil allows it to effectively combat wear-causing contaminants and acids, providing superior protection and performance over extended drain intervals.
Cold Crank Simulator (ASTM D-5293)
The Cold Crank Simulator Test determines the apparent viscosity of lubricants at low temperatures and high shear rates. Viscosity of lubricants under these conditions is directly related to engine cranking and startability. The lower a lubricant's cold crank viscosity, the easier an engine will turn over in cold temperatures. 10W motor oils are tested at -25°C and must have a viscosity below 7000 cP to pass. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil is well below the maximum requirement, while many of the competing oils barely pass.
The low cold crank viscosity of AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil reduces drag on moving engine parts and allows engines to achieve critical cranking speed in extremely frigid temperatures. Engines turn over quickly and dependably in the coldest winter temperatures.
Four Ball Wear (ASTM D-4172)
The Four Ball Wear Test determines the wear protection properties of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with the test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This contact typically produces a wear scar, which is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the wear protection provided by the lubricant. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil produced the smallest wear scar of the tested lubricants.
Motul E-Tech 100
Motul E-TECH 100 4-Stroke Oil
A combination of esters and polyaphaolifine synthetic base stocks
Offers the best of two worlds: high-performance and city-type stop-and-go
Designed to work with engines, clutches, gearboxes, internal chains, high lift cams and heavy loads
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
Another article saying the same things! BTW, I am not 100% sure about the Grape Seed Oil in the Oil, but looking at the properties of the Oil and where the Esters come from and the fact that the COmpany is based in France is what makes me think they use this. You know they all have their Secret Formula and I think that is part of it!
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twista
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posted December 08, 2007 03:01 PM
Hey Vince,, i took a half hour ride,, and came back and re adjusted the cable at both points,, and i can now find neutral and the thing is a monster wants to come up in 2nd with throttle
17tooth up front,, but now i am scared shitless that i might have installed that damn washer wrong,, can you give me the part number of the washer you are refering to,, and exactly how did you go about inspecting to see if it is correctly installed,, i really dont want to remove the clutch now that it is dialed,, i cant believe they made this damn washer like that and that out of all the posts ive never heard anything about it! you cant tell just by riding the bike if its in wrong huh? i will buy a scope and mirror or what ever let me know what i have to do.. thanx for that little bit of info,, hope i causght it in time!
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted December 08, 2007 07:07 PM
motul 300v works great
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted December 08, 2007 08:05 PM
slipper clutch equipped bikes hate synthetic, and the owners manual also warns against using it.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
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posted December 08, 2007 08:12 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 8 Dec 2007 20:13
WIth JUST A Mirror and bright light shinning into the mirror with the clutch cover off, you should be able to see if there is a little clearance between the washer and the basket!
Part # 92026A
Again, did you remove the Clutch Basket? If you did not, then you did not remove this washer. If you did remove the basket, did you Remove this washer?
The "Reference Oil Pump" ring slips over the Gear on the back of the basket and that washer sits Directly against the Clutch Shaft Bearing
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twista
Zone Head
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posted December 08, 2007 10:17 PM
is the clutch shaft bearing in the photo above? #92026A is the thrust washer correct,, so does it go ,,, hub,,large washer,,basket,,ref oil pump gear,, then THRUST WASHER,,and then engine block? yes i know the sleeve and bearing go in also,, just want to know the order .. wow what a dilema,, i feel like a fool,, not noticing it if it was there and i didnt touch it.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted December 08, 2007 10:31 PM
Did you put everything back the way you took it out?...Then you have nothing to worry about...
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twista
Zone Head
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posted December 08, 2007 10:39 PM
wasent really paying attention to a washer that i didnt know was tappered,, everything went so smooth!,, i DO remember that after all was said and done,, that ONLY 2 Large washers were removed,, and if im reading correctly the thrust wouldve been Number 3 i think?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 09, 2007 07:33 AM
Twista, You have it correct! I Knew the difference in the washer but somehow got distracted and put it in backward!
If you only removed and replaced "2" Washers, then like I said in the PM, Most likely you did "NOT" Remove it! There is no need to remove it and now I am about 90% SUre it was never removed by you! Usually people pull everything off and the washer is NOT Part of the process!
BTW, I have also reversed the Oil Pump Gear! That was easy because as soon as I started it up and the pressure did not come Up, I knew what the problem was!
This is part of the problems with people racing and trying to meet a deadline and up for 3 or 4 days in a row and this usually happens at 3 or 4 AM when you are desperate to finish! Then add to that now someone in their mid 60's and you have a problem!
Perfect! You did do what I do at night! Go over everything I did while laying in Bed! If you made ANY Mistakes, that is when you will find them!
RIDE Your BIKE! You never removed that washer! The Hub to bearing washer is Flat and the Hub to Nut washer is tapered with a this side out on it!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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