Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 25, 2007 02:06 PM
 Edited By: Phantom13 on 25 Sep 2007 15:09
Just about every stroker 12R I've head of has had engine failure sooner than later. The only "bullet-proof" engine combo is a piston kit, cams, headwork, undercut tranny, balanced crank/pistons/rods, bigger fuel pump.
You're looking at 195rwhp with a 1270/1287 kit with the above combo. Throw a small 25 shot of nitrous on top of that and you've got all the power of a big stroker with none of the issues. Just run on motor and if you see anyone scoot by you... hit the button. Oh did I mention this set-up is a HELL OF A LOT CHEAPER?
Few suggestions...
1. GET THE TRANSMISSION UNDERCUT!!!! The stock tranny won't hold up to 200rwhp for long before it starts to pop out of gear... then it's all down hill.
2. Get an upgraded fuel pump. Either the Muzzy's or get the same pump direct for cheaper. I believe it's a Walbro GSS347 fuel pump. You can find them anywhere on the internet.
3. Drop as much weight off the bike and off your butt as possibile. Every 18 lbs is the equivilant of 3rwhp and/or 1mph in the mile. Doesn't seem like much...but if you're running against an identical bike with a rider that's 200 lbs (70 less than you)... he will accelerate as if he has roughly 12rwhp MORE than you. How does that translate into distance? Well that's about 4mph... and 1mph = approx 1.5 ft per second. So 4 x 1.5 = 6ft per second! Yes, that's a bikelength every second. In the time it takes you to finish this sentance, that 200 lb guy has just pulled 4-5 bikelengths on you. I hope this gives you a little perspective on just how large of a role weight plays in racing.
4. Get a 24v starting system (second battery). Once the bike gets hot, it's going to be a mofo trying to get it started. I have a second battery on my 1287 and it starts up regardless of engine heat.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
   
|
kawasabi
Expert Class
Posts: 150
|
posted September 26, 2007 04:03 AM
Where do you mount the second bat?
|
ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
|
posted September 26, 2007 04:49 AM
Tailsection
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 26, 2007 05:33 AM
Yes, the tailsection. The battery is small. Still plenty of room for ECU, PC3usb, Ignition Mod, Bonneville Box, and a Redbull.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted September 26, 2007 06:32 AM
Room for a progressive box, EFIR, and a bottle as well............................but not much else.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
|
posted September 26, 2007 08:40 AM
it is possible to fit two small batteries in the stock location. ive got an odyssey 310 and a very small yuasa in there.
____________
Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 26, 2007 10:10 AM
Phantom, then you need a new engine builder or find out what is going wrong and address the weak link or procedure. There is no inherent failure mode in a stroked 12 (less than 4.5mm or so).
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 26, 2007 10:42 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 26 Sep 2007 11:43
It's not my engine builder that I'm talking about. In fact, my engine builder has set a couple new LSR records at Maxton with a stroker Busa 1507cc, along with a few records on a 1348cc Busa, and a few more on a 998cc ZX-10R so I'm confident in his engine building abilities. Maybe you've heard of the shop? ACE PERFORMANCE ?
He just built my 1287cc ZX-12R and it's pretty strong.....
Anyway, I was just refering to a couple local stroked 12's that have had crank issues...
Oh, since we're on the issue of strokers here.... how high would you say a 1375cc stroker 12R can SAFELY rev up to? I've got my 1287cc reving up to 12.2k (actual) and was wondering if the same rev limiter can be used SAFELY on a stroker application (assuming the right valve springs are used).
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
|
posted September 26, 2007 12:26 PM
quote:
Phantom, then you need a new engine builder or find out what is going wrong and address the weak link or procedure. There is no inherent failure mode in a stroked 12 (less than 4.5mm or so).
Thanks Doug, I was going to respond with a similar comment, but figured it would mean more coming from someone like yourself  I've got 22k+ miles on my stroker, and she's still running just as strong as ever, thank you Mr. Velasco
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 26, 2007 12:34 PM
phantom-
It depends on the power curve and the use. The Muzzy Pro Stock 1425 or whatever reved over 13K with no ill effects.
On a 1375 street/strip engine I would think anything over 11.5 is a waste of time (in the E.T. sense).
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 26, 2007 01:12 PM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 26 Sep 2007 14:13
Thank you for the response. I was thinking more along the lines of an LSR set-up, so the power curve would be set up on the higher side for MPH.
So you guys reved over 13k actual RPM or tach indicated? If it was actual RPM (that's insane! lol), how'd you get that much RPM out of the ECU? Heck, if I could SAFELY rev my 1287 to an ACTUAL 13k rpm.... I'd forget about the 08 Busa and stick with the ZX12R.
I understand in the 1/4 mile the extra RPM isn't too important, but for LSR events such as the 9/10th's (a long version of the 1/4) and Maxton it's crucial due to the limited distance provided.
Thank you for your time, Mr. Meyer.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted September 26, 2007 04:03 PM
I would think MoTeC and Pankl (or functional equivalents thereof) would get you a long way towards turning 13k.
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted September 26, 2007 04:05 PM
Phantom, Remember The Muzz Man has his Own Stand Alone System and it would not be using any Kawasaki ECU
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted September 26, 2007 04:10 PM
Shit, the 12r isnt a busa. look at the stroke difference even after the 1375 crank is in it. 60 vs 63mm.
The 60mm stroke and stock rod length 12r can still safely rev to 12k if the ecu would let it. The piston speeds are still ok. The limiting factor isnt the bottom end on a 1375 drop in kit. Change cams and valve springs and port the head and it will keep reving and still have more torque than a 1270/1290 at any rpm.
I will say that the extra radiused "chamfer" muzzys or milinium does to the bottom of the cylinder is not good for durability. It makes the pistond go in easier but you loose a very valuaeable .050"-.080" or so of skirt support. I'd prefer if the factory left it square at the bottom with a .01.020" radius. that would yield another very needed .110-.130" or so of added skirt support. But it would make it mandatory to use a GOOD set of ring compressors.
Kawi didnt care becasue it wasnt an issue with the stock stroke.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted September 26, 2007 05:52 PM
quote:
How many passes..........
3 years worth
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 27, 2007 05:22 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 27 Sep 2007 06:23
quote:
Shit, the 12r isnt a busa. look at the stroke difference even after the 1375 crank is in it. 60 vs 63mm.
The 60mm stroke and stock rod length 12r can still safely rev to 12k if the ecu would let it. The piston speeds are still ok. The limiting factor isnt the bottom end on a 1375 drop in kit. Change cams and valve springs and port the head and it will keep reving and still have more torque than a 1270/1290 at any rpm.
I will say that the extra radiused "chamfer" muzzys or milinium does to the bottom of the cylinder is not good for durability. It makes the pistond go in easier but you loose a very valuaeable .050"-.080" or so of skirt support. I'd prefer if the factory left it square at the bottom with a .01.020" radius. that would yield another very needed .110-.130" or so of added skirt support. But it would make it mandatory to use a GOOD set of ring compressors.
Kawi didnt care becasue it wasnt an issue with the stock stroke.
Hell, this is some good news......
Perhaps I'll save myself some money (no, I'm not switching to Gieko) and not go with the 08 Busa and instead go with a 1375 kit when the 1287 setup is due for a little freshening up. It wouldn't be much of hassle either... already have the head ported, bigger cams, undercut tranny, balanced rods, etc...
Man, I know how hard my 1287 pulls now..... I can't even imagine the grunt of a 1375 with maybe a little 30 shot of juice. There'll be some pretty upset 2008 Busa/14 owners scratching their heads!!!
Thank you for the information guys. I appreciate it !!
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 27, 2007 12:51 PM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 27 Sep 2007 14:23
You know, I was doing some math and came up with a couple combo's...
86mm x 60mm (4.6mm stroke) = 1393cc's (a true ZX-14R)
86mm x 58mm (2.6mm stroke) = 1347cc (perfect for Maxton/Bonn's 1350cc class)
I'm extremely interested in having a TRUE ZX-14R ......
Question.... will a weld-up stroker crank hold up to the stress during repeated 1 mile runs, week in, week out?
The reason I ask is because a local 1375 stroker 12 snapped 2 different cranks. It was used for LSR.
Will this type of racing abuse require a billet crank?
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 28, 2007 01:36 AM
phantom,
i have never heard of a 12 "snapping" a crank, not weldup or billet.
Me thinks yr local guy gets his cranks from the wrong place. Maybe his cases were seriously warped.
Weldup will work just fine.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted September 28, 2007 05:35 AM
Thanks for the reply, Entropy!
I was looking into it... and Muzzys sells a billet crank 4.6mm for $3,700! Dayumn... that's pricey, but I'm sure it's ultra reliable.
I know Falicon does good work with the weld-up cranks... I'm just worried about the reliability. I know there's a lot of crank flex with strokers, especially at high rpm applications.
Again, this is for an LSR bike that will be racing repeatedly every week here in the local 9/10th mile. I'm very serious about going big (1393cc) when my 1287 is tired and requires a little freshening up. I'm guessing sometime next winter?
So before I do anything, I need to get a ton of opinions on the matter. My MAIN concern is reliability since this engine will be running LSR on a weekly basis. I need a set-up that will take the abuse and smile.
Doug, any thoughts?
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 28, 2007 05:50 AM
if you are going to have a crank stroked go to Marine Crankshaft near LA.
A bunch of us have been using them for several years and they are top notch, and about a month faster than Falicon & APE.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted September 29, 2007 04:22 AM
Well I'm not sure if Muzzys or anyone else ever did a finite harmonic / stress analysis of the stroker cranks for longevity. Every part has a "cycles before failure" number, even the stock crank.
For instance, top fuel guys make x number of passes with a crankshaft before replacing it reguardless of its aparent condition. This crank is then fine to use in a lower hp application for years. But they have found over trial and error (the hard and expensive way) that a crank only lasts x number of passes before probable failure is iminent.
Now if i was a betting man I'd say a weld up stroker vs a stock crank from kawi, has less available extreme duty time in it. And the billet crank (with all probability) has more available extreme cycles available before failure. Also its maximum duty is most probably higher also.
I know If I was building a purpose built stroker engine that was going to see most of its life at max hp and max rpms with my ass on the seat at 200+ mph I'd run the billet crank.
It will last longer and it will handle more HP, assuming the materials, design, and manufacturing are all proper.
At the very least I'd magnaflux and x-ray the stroker for cracks and internal flaws. Althou it might me kinda scarry seeing a welded stroker cranks x-ray report.
With that said, my Marine/Muzzy 6mm welded stroker crank has seen 4000 very hard ridden miles and all is well so far.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 29, 2007 03:49 PM
Phantom,
You are making a common fundamental mistake about top speed engine requirements.
High RPM is pretty much irrelevant, in fact it is often counterproductive because it usually results in a narrow "powerband". What you need is TORQUE. Once you have that you just set up the gearing to put it to work.
This concept is literally the first big lesson I learned at Bonneville, 31 years ago.
I don''t think Muzzy has anymore billets in stock, but you can check. If he does, you might get a deal. It doesn't matter though. I'd ride a welded stroker, either Falicon or Marine crank, without a second thought (providing I built the engine, of course ).
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted October 01, 2007 04:02 AM
Thanks for the info, Doug and Y2k! I appreciate it!
btw Doug, I never said anything about moving the powerband higher to make use of the RPM's. The rpm's serve a different purpose entirely.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted October 01, 2007 03:59 PM
Oh? What purpose do they serve?
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted October 02, 2007 03:15 AM
quote:
Oh? What purpose do they serve?
They keep his thread ticking over...
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC