entropy
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posted July 25, 2007 05:36 AM
trimming individual cyl fuel maps...
JohnnyCheese is the only one I know of who has taken AF of all 4 cyl; finding that 1&4 were running lean wrt 2&3. I am sure others must have done this.
Q1: has anyone else gotten AF of each cyl??
Q2: has anyone trimmed the fuel maps to richen 1&4, lean out 2&3, care to share what happened to hp??
I will fully understand if no one cares to share this type of info, but i can ask, eh??
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supra5677
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posted July 25, 2007 08:28 AM
when I start tuning thats exactly how im gonna do it..
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hyper12r
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posted July 25, 2007 08:39 AM
just wondering is the why bear mix stacks is the best overall set up?
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ridgeracer
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posted July 25, 2007 09:46 AM
Did you look at the stock ECU fuel maps in enginuity? Here is a compare of cylinder 1 to cylinder 2 fuel maps for the A1. Read it as: Compared to cyl 2, cyl 1 is....
It looks like the ECU is mapped from the factory to run a little leaner in cylinder 1. However the most drastic differences are at low RPM and low throttle.
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entropy
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posted July 25, 2007 11:05 AM
RR
Yep, i did look at it and did the difference you show above.
Perhaps with factory pipe, unaltered motor the AF is equalized accross all 4 cyl.
But with aftermarket stuff the balance is disturbed???
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zx12mark
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posted July 25, 2007 03:47 PM
But with aftermarket stuff the balance is disturbed???
THAT IS FOR FUCKING SURE!
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rgeorge
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posted July 25, 2007 04:28 PM
quote:
Q1: has anyone else gotten AF of each cyl??
Not yet,
I have been working on installing a BIG data acquisition/logging system on my bike.
One of the main goals is to do cylinder to cylinder comparisons.
but, it will not have an O2 sensor ($$$) on each cylinder.
My system will have an EGT sensor ($$) on each cylinder and then a single O2 sensor after the collector.
I have most of the hardware but it is going to be a while until the system is up and running.
Note: Before someone chimes in with the standard "You cant tune with EGTs."
I am aware of the limitations of EGT readings and will be more interested in the difference between the EGT values than the actual temp readings.
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ZXLNT
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Kawpuke Extraordinare
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posted July 28, 2007 06:30 AM
George how about 4 bungs, 1 in each exhaust pipe before the collector. Then you can tune each cylinder and move the 02 sensor from 1 pipe to the next as you tune.
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tcchin
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posted July 28, 2007 02:55 PM
 Edited By: tcchin on 28 Jul 2007 16:00
Don't forget that the middle cylinders run hotter than the outer cylinders, and the extra fuel may be used to keep temps/detonation under control. In carbureted systems, it's not uncommon to achieve best power with significant differences in pilot, needle and main jets between inner and outer cylinders, so perhaps there are other thermodynamic phenomena in play as well. Remember that A/F ratio is merely circumstantial evidence of power production; actual power measurement, other gas data, and real-world testing are much better indicators of performance and efficiency.
If EGT is good enough for the FAA to keep pilots and those on the ground safe, then it's good enough for me.
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VincentHill
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posted July 28, 2007 07:45 PM
If you also notice, the Oil Squirters are only in 2 cylinders and my understanding is that when you use all 4 that the Oil temp goes up because if more heat into the oil. I think that this amy also be part of the reason Kawasaki may have different fuel for the 4 cylinders. I am going to use a Air Cooled Oil Cooler to keep the Oil heat from transferring to the Liquid Engine cooling!
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entropy
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posted July 29, 2007 02:03 AM
quote:
Don't forget that the middle cylinders run hotter than the outer cylinders, and the extra fuel may be used to keep temps/detonation under control. In carbureted systems, it's not uncommon to achieve best power with significant differences in pilot, needle and main jets between inner and outer cylinders, so perhaps there are other thermodynamic phenomena in play as well. Remember that A/F ratio is merely circumstantial evidence of power production; actual power measurement, other gas data, and real-world testing are much better indicators of performance and efficiency.
If EGT is good enough for the FAA to keep pilots and those on the ground safe, then it's good enough for me.
the next time it's on the dyno, i'll take the temps of all 4 headers while under constant hi rpm load.
cool experiment! I like experiments.
I was hoping that someone besides JC had actually done some playing around trimming the indiv cyl. JC has had consistent results, but it's always good to get another perspective.
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entropy
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posted July 29, 2007 02:06 AM
quote:
If you also notice, the Oil Squirters are only in 2 cylinders and my understanding is that when you use all 4 that the Oil temp goes up because if more heat into the oil. I think that this amy also be part of the reason Kawasaki may have different fuel for the 4 cylinders. I am going to use a Air Cooled Oil Cooler to keep the Oil heat from transferring to the Liquid Engine cooling!
VH
air cooled oil cooler?? why?? The water cooled one works just fine, and many, many folks even pull that one off and don't run any oil cooler.
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VincentHill
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posted July 29, 2007 05:09 AM
quote:
quote:
If you also notice, the Oil Squirters are only in 2 cylinders and my understanding is that when you use all 4 that the Oil temp goes up because if more heat into the oil. I think that this amy also be part of the reason Kawasaki may have different fuel for the 4 cylinders. I am going to use a Air Cooled Oil Cooler to keep the Oil heat from transferring to the Liquid Engine cooling!
VH
air cooled oil cooler?? why?? The water cooled one works just fine, and many, many folks even pull that one off and don't run any oil cooler.
Because I plan to really heat things up! The ZX12 is already at the edge of what the cooling system can do and some have developed the Dreaded Jaguar disease (The inability of the cooling system to handle the heat from the factory) and a 150 to 200 shot of NOS REALLY Heats the Pistons which will have more Oil spray to cool them. Taking the Duties of cooling the Oil MAY / Should help keep the water temp DOWN! Remember I will be on the power for between 1 to 3 miles and that is a LONG time to keep everything Cool as opposed to between 1/8 and 1/4 mile "Don't you think??"
It is only an "Expirement"! Don't you just love them! 
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rgeorge
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posted July 29, 2007 12:47 PM
VH
In my experience, water temp is not a concern unless you are sitting in traffic.
The radiator works very well at high speeds.
When I ran the Texas mile, I let the bike get nice and warm before each run - about 10:00 on the gauge. Ran the bike WOT for about 27 seconds and over 20 seconds of that was with a 40 shot. At the end of the run the temp gauge was 2 or 3 ticks lower! This was with 50/50 water/antifreeze, no water wetter etc.
If you are removing heat from the pistons with extra oil (probably a very good thing to do), keeping tabs on oil temp may be another good "experiment"
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Texas12R
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posted July 29, 2007 10:20 PM
I reserve the right to be wrong......but it sounds like a good reason to coat the top of the piston with a ceramic coating or some type of temp barrier
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psycho1122
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posted July 30, 2007 06:09 AM
quote:
I reserve the right to be wrong......but it sounds like a good reason to coat the top of the piston with a ceramic coating or some type of temp barrier
I use a layer of carbon build up to insulate.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 30, 2007 09:40 AM
Sounds like Mr. Hill might be thinking of going to play with the sand or dirt boys.
I think Mr. Robinson might be working on some oil pump gears to spin things a
little faster. Might work well with your air cooling system and extra spigots.
A ceramic coat on the exhaust port might keep a little heat out of that head as well.
Keep us up to date Mr. Hill.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 30, 2007 10:07 AM
Forgot to ask, how is the new project going Karl?
One of these days when JC is bored I might have to pop the bike on the
dyno and see what each individual A/F is running. If it looks a little ugly
or I decide to run a little more juice I might have to pick up a USB instead
of my old PCIIIr.
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entropy
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posted July 30, 2007 12:40 PM
I am very intruiged by the idea of tuning indiv cyl, but i have no idea if it is worth the trouble.
If the middle cyls are supposed to run cool/rich then jacking with them may be bad ju-ju.
On the other hand, maybe there are several hp just waiting to be tapped???
Gary,
I just tore the motor down yesterday, but it should go together pretty quick.
( a WHOLE lot quicker, if i didn't feel compelled to blind-measure everything again)
It's going together with the Muzzy pipe, not the BDE SW.
I'm getting ready for the Mile!! Woo-hoo!!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 31, 2007 06:40 AM
Muzzy 4 into 1 ? I wonder if you'll have a similar HP dip?
Just dropped bros. bike off on sat. to have JC work on it a little, NOS/Tune for the Mile also.
With the sidewinder it should be easy to get that sniffer into each individual cylinder. Just
might get you a pony or two.
JC has done a whole lot of individual cylinder trimming on bikes since his Dyno has been up and running.............................................................................................................................on V-Twins that is.
Just curious do you run all 4 oil spigots that shoot the pistons, or just the regular two, or do
you plug the regular 2 as well?
Can't wait to here your new Monster Motor at the Mile. I am sure you will be the first 12 to hit 200mph!
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dougmeyer
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posted July 31, 2007 12:14 PM
tcchin,
Why the assumption that "the inner cylinders run hotter" ? Where did that data come from?
Vincent - erroneous assumption that the liquid-liquid oil cooler is "less efficient". All that counts is the delta. If you have 270 deg oil and 190 deg water it's fairly easy to move enough heat from the oil to the water to keep the oil at whatever temp you desire 250F ?270F? easy. This true fro the same reason atht liquid coole engines are easier to keep cool atht air cooled ones. The water provides a better "heat sink" than the air. If you want the same transfer, you'll have to provide a large surface area exposed to the air. Do you need more drag? Is that thing getting too fast for ya'?
I suspect that ya'll will find that a given (desired) A/F in a particular engine will correlate with a consistant EGT, and that once you find that EGT you can tune other cylinders by EGT if direct A/F is not available. I'll look forward to hearing how that works out.
Doug
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kaw12
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posted July 31, 2007 04:00 PM
the stock map looks alot different than a dyno chart map. i mean it only goes up to 90% throttle opening and the rpms just go to 11761. thats really weird. i mean all the increments are all different than the power commander chart. The pc chart starts at 0% throttle and goes up to 13000rpm which is good, but whats up with the beginning of the stock map throttle opening starting at 21.5? and all the rpms in increments of 98 unlike the pc which is 250? huh????
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Stuart Racing
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posted July 31, 2007 05:00 PM
This is good stuff..I just bought the Power Commander LCD unit which allows for individual cyl. fuel trimming...Let me see what it can do..Gotta get into it....
Paul....
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tcchin
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posted July 31, 2007 09:25 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 31 Jul 2007 23:04
Doug,
Not really an assumption, just plain heat transfer theory. There are four quadrants on each cylinder (fore, aft, left, right). The outside cylinders are exposed to cool, convective ambient air on three sides and hot engine internals on one side. The inner cylinders are exposed to ambient air on two sides and hot engine internals on two sides. Yes, this is a liquid-cooled motor, but twice as much heat energy is still being imparted onto the inner cylinders as the outer cylinders, yet roughly the same amount of coolant flows around each cylinder.
Regarding tuning by EGT, I thought most certified aircraft engines had EGT/AF charts developed so the pilot can set power via EGT and know pretty much where the AF is. EGT vs. AF is fairly reproducible, probably more so than AF vs. BHP, but that's a different discussion.
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entropy
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posted August 01, 2007 01:23 AM
gary,
at the mile i'll be running the same muzzy 4-1 that i ran in Mar; i'm doing it more for aeros cause i can use that pipe with nearly uncut lowers (unlike the SW).
The BDE SW makes it virtually impossible to get indiv cyl AF's cause the 1,2 & 2,4 headers go 2-1 so far from the 2-1 "mid pipe".
The muzzy 4-1 would easily allow indiv AF's IF i put it on the dyno without the mid pipe which i WON'T do. It may be possible to get the sniffer probe thru the mid pipe into individ headers but its kinda long...
I'm just running the 2 oil jets on this set of cases. I was thinking previously that adding the 2 extra jets would help the wrist pin galling issue i was having, but since i went to offset rod journals that issue seems to have gone. who knows.
What I do know is that my garage AC is working! Woo-hoo! So this weekend my Bud Light won't warm up so fast as i am puttingthe motor back together (not that my beer EVER gets a chance to warm up )
Is yr beast ready for Oct??
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