shiphteey
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Posts: 2529
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posted May 14, 2007 05:01 PM
PC3R with Nitrous?
Just wondering if anyone had a decent/safe nos map for the 00 bike since I found out my nos map has +4 ignition advance and not sure if it has adequate fuel since the 11,000 and up show negative numbers!
40 shot dry, muzzy pipe, 2000 model on pump gas. Like I said, stab in the dark but I figured if I'm gonna ask anywhere, here would make sense. For now I put the timing back to zero but just was wondering what the fuel values look like....say from 8k on up at 100% throttle.
Thanks in advance (pardon the pun )
A.
  
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted May 14, 2007 06:12 PM
I thought it was a requirement to retard ignition with nitrous. as for the fuel I remember Mr Hill
saying something about bumping the fuel up a couple of bars at the commander interface.
Probably not much help....pardon my ignorance
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted May 14, 2007 06:46 PM
Right, retarding the timing would be optimal. Mine was done the OTHER way around, thankfully it still hasn't popped yet. Zero timing is ok w/a small shot, just wanted to see what other values people have for the fuel side.
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osti33
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Posts: 2973
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posted May 15, 2007 03:57 AM
I just bumpped mine up a bar or two on the high end of the PC. Done deal.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted May 15, 2007 11:28 PM
Yikes! I am surprised your motor has survived
quote:
Just wondering if anyone had a decent/safe nos map
Spoon feed answer:
Add 25% fuel at 8k tapered down to 18% at 10.5k and continue 18% to redline
My bike is an 03 but I don't know why that would make any difference.
Full answer:
Here is what I did to develop my fuel map. I was VERY CARFULL when using dry nitrous for the first time.
1. Start with a provided map for my bike, exhaust, etc
2. Test (dyno and/or high speed run with datalog) and adjust map to achieve a nice flat AFR for NA use.
3. Add fuel to target 12.0 AFR - I had to add about 9% across the board
4. Test and adjust (dyno and/or datalog)
5. Calculate additional fuel required for 30hp jet. The bike makes 175hp NA at 10.5krpm so 30hp is a 17% increase in fuel requirements. 135hp NA at 7500 so use 22% increase there, and so on, to fill all cells above 7500.
6. Turn on the bottle with 30jets in the bike, set advance to 0
7. Test and adjust. Target 12.0 AFR. Was way too rich (but safe). Part of the nitrous effect is cooling of the intake air. This is sensed by the MAT sensor and the ecu provides extra fuel accordingly, therefore; the PC does not need to turn things up as much as calculated in step 5
8. put in 40hp jets and add 8% fuel set advance to -2
9. Test and adjust. Target 12.0 AFR
I have my dry nozzles after the air filters so I would bet that the MAT sensor "sees" the nitrous more than it does with your setup. I highly recommend getting your fuel map set up for YOUR bike on a dyno.
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shiphteey
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Posts: 2529
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posted May 16, 2007 08:17 AM
 Edited By: shiphteey on 16 May 2007 09:20
Thanks for the 411! But you are right, at the end of the day one should set it up for THEIR bike. I spray at the ram air tubes so my hit is a little softer initially. Since I am going to add the high flow fuel pump now (may as well since I'm remapping, right?) that will change the values significantly. Thought I would just remap but if I'm going to remap, may as well throw in the higher flowing pump while the job is getting done....even w/the remap and a rich tune with 0 or -1 degrees of timing taken out I'm still triggershy about installing the 60 shot jets that I've had for over a year now...they keep calling me!
I "may" run a double bottle set-up now that I have the higher capacity fuel pump....that way the nitrous doesn't fade out in 6th. Dr.Ryan said that hitting the 40 shot with 2 bottles Teed together hits SIGNIFICANTLY harder than the single bottle said up!
We just may be both on double bottle 40 shots this weekend!
A.
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TRNorBRN6001
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Posts: 2021
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posted May 16, 2007 08:23 AM
You have too much money invested into your bike not to spend a couple hundred bucks to have the bike dynoed and a custom map made.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted May 16, 2007 08:50 AM
Absolutely! Problem is, I'm a broke mofo! And technically I paid hundreds to my former sponsor to have it nitrous tuned on the dyno in September 05. Really pisses me off they would advance my timing +4 instead of -3 like they said. Looks lean up to too but apparently it must have been "somewhat" safe. Looking forward to spraying with more confidence! When you get all those stupid little voices out of your head prior to staging and are nice and calm, thats when you get those higher MPH runs!
A.
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rac4it
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Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 16, 2007 08:51 AM
Are you running one nozzle or two? What size (#) is on each jet? Do you have the Muzzys fuel pump installed now or are you running the factory fuel pump.
I have various maps for stock and muzzys pump and jetting sizes recorded from my personal experience with dry kits. I 've run both single nozzle and (now) dual nozzle setups.
FWIW pulling 2 to 4 degrees, even naturally aspirated, as always yielded better results at Maxton because of the load at high speeds.
Post your map numbers from 8K up and list the mods and I may be able to assist.
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 16, 2007 09:05 AM
I will have a laptop for programming changes.
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted May 16, 2007 09:14 AM
Since you are going to the dyno, you might as well create a MBT map for nitrous use. make sure you keep bottle pressure constant for every pull.
If you do, share the results!
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narider
Expert Class
Posts: 246
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posted May 16, 2007 09:16 AM
quote:
list the mods and I may be able to assist.
 
Very cool indeed!
Todd
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted May 16, 2007 09:36 AM
My set-up right now is a "Cold Fusion" set-up, dry shot. Bottles are similar to NOS but I think the valves are different. Jets may also be different, I'll have to check what each say when I get home.
2.5 lb bottle to solenoid,
solenoid to T-fitting,
T fitting comes out with 2 nylon lines (a splitter that splits it into 2 seperate 20 shot jets),
1 nylon line goes to the right ram air, the other, to the left.
Using the PC3R, since September 2005 till now the mapping has been +4 degrees from 8500 rpms up and here are the fuel values at 100% throttle:
Fuel at 100% throttle:
8000 -5
8500 -3
9000 4
9500 4
10000 2
10500 3
11000 -2
11500 -4
12000 -7
Now when I get the bike remapped I will have the Muzzy hi flo fuel pump installed prior to turning a wheel on the dyno. While I'm at it I'll install the 2nd bottle now so that I will have less psi dropoff at the traps.
-2 to -4 degrees you say Bergie? Seems almost like a nitrous map! But it sounds like a plan, especially on pump 93 oct. It would be intersting to know what type of difference in chart values the muzzy hi flow pump requires.
I have been slowly getting the hang of using the Dynojet Control Center on my laptop and the battery life should be good for an hour or more. I'm kinda getting antsy now actually thinking about how much potential is in this bike w/the correct map and these lightweight wheels.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted May 16, 2007 09:41 AM
rgeorge: You know me, I'll definately post the results. Many of us start out w/small nitrous shots ... but sooner or later I'm sure plenty of us want more nitrous....no way around it, gotta upgrade the fuel system.
If I had the time I'd maybe do some comparision/contrast between the stock and muzzy on the dyno but I don't have the time/money as I am leaving for Maxton Friday early AM! Just gotta focus on getting it "safe" and "right".
A.
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 16, 2007 11:48 AM
With the muzzys pump the fuel maps change somewhat, slightly less added on the top end depending on how big you're spraying. I'll have to dig thru my old data to find my old maps but I clearly see that with your existing numbers you need to add fuel for spraying on 93 pump gasoline. I spent a LOT of time on the wideband dyno.
With the stock pump those fuel numbers should be in the positive teens or close to 20 for stock pistons and a #34 NOS brand nitrous jet.
The added benefit of the additional fuel is safety for detonation, it's better to be rich than lean when spraying, especially in the mile. Don't end up like my buddy Scott who pushed it on his 1st pass at Maxton and wasted the entire weekend. Save your nitrous runs until day #2 if possible especially if you're experiementing or running an unproven configuration.
Yes pulling timing on an N/A map at Maxton yields positive results because of the heavy load, this is common for cars as well. Give it a try if you have spare time to make some back to back runs with only programming changes.
If I were you, I'd put a gallon or so of C12 or C16 before spraying just to be safe, regardless of the mapping.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted May 16, 2007 12:17 PM
quote:
With the muzzys pump the fuel maps change somewhat, slightly less added on the top end depending on how big you're spraying. I'll have to dig thru my old data to find my old maps but I clearly see that with your existing numbers you need to add fuel for spraying on 93 pump gasoline. I spent a LOT of time on the wideband dyno.
With the stock pump those fuel numbers should be in the positive teens or close to 20 for stock pistons and a #34 NOS brand nitrous jet.
The added benefit of the additional fuel is safety for detonation, it's better to be rich than lean when spraying, especially in the mile. Don't end up like my buddy Scott who pushed it on his 1st pass at Maxton and wasted the entire weekend. Save your nitrous runs until day #2 if possible especially if you're experiementing or running an unproven configuration.
Yes pulling timing on an N/A map at Maxton yields positive results because of the heavy load, this is common for cars as well. Give it a try if you have spare time to make some back to back runs with only programming changes.
If I were you, I'd put a gallon or so of C12 or C16 before spraying just to be safe, regardless of the mapping.
Good info Bergie. Looks like Rick is about to install the pump any minute and then they'll start making some pulls on the dyno. They'll probably use a good amount of the bottle so I'll use that little bit just to stab partly in 5th & 6th doing the button dance at Maxton for my 1st pull. I don't expect to hit 200 doing that but it'll be good for a shakedown run....
next run I'll go 1 full bottle, see how things look and then probably splash some race gas when I go double bottle maybe late in the afternoon.
Curiosity is really killing me on what MPH I'll end up running. Of course the main focus is having a safer and cooler running motor, but I can't help but think this should be a noticable gain, one that can be determined by a "seat of the pants" feel as opposed to mods that no one "feels" (like a drop in filter or spark plugs).
What are your MPH goals with the 1290 and the juice? 40 shot?
A.
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 16, 2007 01:27 PM
I am running all no-bodywork classes this weekend, leaving the bodywork at home otherwise it would be too tempting to "just go fast". I'll save that for another event.
I doubt if I will spray, it depends how it goes naturally aspirated.
I do have a 2# bottle that mounts in the swingarm. This bike has a tiger tail and electronics under the rear seat there's no room for a bottle inside.
On Lee's dyno (reads a little higher than most) it put down +/-190rwhp using VP C16 fuel on just motor alone. The C-16 probably killed a few ponies. The two nitrous maps I have for it include a twin 30 pill setup that makes about 260rwhp and a twin 40 pill map that makes 295rwhp (dry). These are drag racing maps, not sure if they are safe for LSR yet.
My problem right now is I have an FI light illuminated now (always on) so I need to diagnose it tonight or I'll be all motor only this weekend, no nitrous runs.
Hopefully I can figure it out before it's too late. Plus I have to work late Thursday, which will slow any progress I had anticipated making prior to leaving on Friday.
My goal is to leave Friday morning, FI light or not, and get tech'd in before dark on Friday, then play around with it and try to button up any last minute issues.
The M/G-1350 record set by Jon W. (185.490) is what I'm aiming for because its a solid non-faired number and will be tough to beat.
I see at least two non-faired "soft" records that are certainly breakable, but I'll let someone else bump them since I'm not running for points. M/G-2000 (177.165) and M/G-3000 (177.816)
If I fix my FI light problem or feel confident enough to spray on it Sunday (very doubtful), I think M/F-3001+ (183.801), M/F-3000 (187.813) and M/F-1350 (188.861) are within reach.
To answer your question IF I were to run fully faired I would expect to trap 198-202mph naturally aspirated if if had the proper gasoline in it, MR9 or at least 93 pump gas. On the spray, fully faired, I'd expect to see 208-213 depending on conditions and jetting. But I will not be running faired this weekend.
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 16, 2007 01:28 PM
Those are my cards;
What classes will I see you running?
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shiphteey
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Posts: 2529
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posted May 16, 2007 06:28 PM
Edited By: shiphteey on 16 May 2007 19:31
Definately MPS/F 1350. Thinking about naked gas and fuel probably not this time around.
Well just got off the dyno, several pulls at about 200 flat RWHP on Fairfax Cycle's Dynojet. You were pretty accurate with your numbers in terms of mapping, from 8500 rpm all the way up the top in terms of 100% throttle numbers. Just about every number was a double digit number save for maybe one field. Stock injectors on spray never saw past 80% duty cycle which isn't too bad.
My AF ratio looks much better though. They sprayed it w/the Fast Lane map and it was 14.xx. Not exactly meltdown territory but not exactly where I wanted to be at for a cooler motor that made good HP, especially since it leans out even more w/the ram air. Rick made almost 20 pulls on it, minor tweeks here and there. Ignition timing is at -3 from 8 on up. He did tell me that off the bottle though now it will be down about 10 or so HP, not that its that big of a deal, I can always use my old map if I want to run n/a for now as a "safe" n/a map.
My plans for Maxton was going to be to run fully faired on Sat and naked sunday playing it by ear. That was BEFORE I discovered my a/f and timing was off. Now that I just dumped money into the dyno session don't think I have the funds to switch classes just to make a pass. Class changes aren't going to be economical.
What I planned before was to run faired and spraying on Sat, then naked and either n/a or spray on Sunday. Now that I'm low on the funds to swap class I'll probably stay faired unless I have a change of heart Sat night/sunday am. Not sure if I feel like wrenching with sprocket changes, take off the plastics, stabalize the ram air, etc etc. For once I'd like to just go out there and keep running the similar/same set-up to get a feel for whats working and whats not rather than jump all over the place.
Thought about bumping the 1350 naked fuel up some more knowing what I know now compared to my last time making the passes but for now I'll try and stay focused on one thing. It is a possibility for me to run naked, but I think I'll try and see how the 2 big variables (wheels/bearings and double bottle w/safer mapping) do for me. But naked is fucking adictive, wilder than 200 w/a fairing for sure. Found myself looking for the "right" tuck, didn't realize not having the windscreen there subconciously gives you kinda no frame of reference. I thought I'd do a few double bottle passes, maybe be done w/it on Sat and then run sun n/a naked as a possibility, but now that I'm going to try single bottle first, then double and "baby" it a little.....and factoring in not as many runs as what Maxton regulars "used to" get in a weekend, like I said, leaning more towards full fairings and spray
As it stands I don't have much time for ANYTHING else, working 16 hours on Thursday w/just enough time to pick up the bike and get some shut-eye before the Friday morning drive.
A.
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 17, 2007 10:03 AM
Fairfax Cycle's dyno reads a little low IIRC but it's been years ago since I had experience with them. Yes you'll lose a solid 5rwhp pulling 3 degrees but trust me, it will prove positive in MPH on the big end at Maxton even running N/A.
The MPS/F-1350/4 record set by Jim Owen in Apr-04 is 218.648 MPH likely out of reach with your current configuration. Maybe, only if you completely remove the jet (running open line to the solenoid) that will make a solid 265-275rwhp on a bone stock motor with pipe (ask me how I know)  but you will definitely need to run 30s across the board in your fuel table from 7K up and pull -4, AND be running VP C-16. It will chew thru a 1# bottle in no time, I'd only try it with the dual bottle configuration and even then probably only enough for 6th gear pull at Maxton but it will make a serious trap if you can keep the tire planted.
A buddy of mine ran this (no jet) dry shot configuration on the drag strip at 60" wheelbase for almost an entire season before he got greedy and it finally let go. He was trapping 165mph in the 1/4 mile foot shifting at 60", stock pistons.
There is a lower record you might want to shoot for running faired: MPS/F-3000/4 set by Charles May in Jun-06 at 213.174 MPH. That's within reach if you step up (or remove) the jetting.
Now that you have a step seat you'll be able to get low and hide from the airstream so with your "40 shot" I'd say 205-207mph is feasible with good weather conditions (no wind or a tail wind). That's my prediction anyway.
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted May 17, 2007 10:04 AM
Glad you had it dynoed, money well spent. Hope you run strong and she don't pop!
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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