posted June 25, 2002 08:57 PM
oh gee, now people arent allowed to voice their thoughts on what may have caused their engine failure? god forbid i ever tell anyone if my clutch basket blows out! i shoudl keep it secret till the world scientific organization passes their 2 year report on exactly what occurred past the UN national security group. then we'll have to have the report rewritten by a team of psychologists so that the news isnt upsetting to other people who own something that contains a clutch.
posted June 25, 2002 09:00 PM
Good Lord, this is getting ridiculous.
I'm not a bandwagon jumper...I've been on this board for less than a month. All I have seen is a couple of guys jumping Swft for putting some information out there, then correcting it once it was determined that his assumptions as a layman were found to be incorrect. No where did he say "I'm sure this is what happened and anyone who has a 1270 is royally screwed!!" If anyone got his or her panties in a wad over his posts, that is his or her problem. He merely provided the information, made a speculative guess as to what likely caused it based on what he saw as a layman, and then deferred to people more knowledgeable on that topic than himself. Once it was proven that his original layman's appraisal was incorrect, he went back and fixed the posts so any latecomers to the party wouldn't only read half the post and assume, as you originally did, that the faulty lower end was at fault. IMHO, he did nothing wrong.
At least that's the way I see it.
Tim
BTW, I have followed this post from the beginning...check about 10 posts down on page one.
posted June 25, 2002 10:10 PM
boom You people just don't get it. Zxlent no sign of brain activity there. And your right I will not be visiting Swifts web site any more as there is no worth wile information here...............
____________
Speed is just a question of money how fast do you want to go
posted June 26, 2002 12:30 AM
SWFT I enjoy reading your posts as a "tester" for those of us less fortunate to have the latest and greatest 12 goodies. Just ignore those lil pups yapping at your heels. They will grow up one day and might get on the porch with the rest of us.
KneeBurner and Psycho....chill dudes.
I am in the process of re-building my 12 and I would like as many opinons about options as I can get.
Of course, opinions are like assholes.....everybody has one.
posted June 26, 2002 06:11 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 26 Jun 2002 07:17
Did I make a mistake? Sure! Am I worried about it? No, I know that the parts are getting fixed, and that the problem WON'T REOCCUR. What's the big sweat?
So Swft.....What are you going to actually do differently to keep this from Re-Occuring?
Since so many board members trust your opinion, I'm shure an answer to this question will be of big help to other 1270 owners.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted June 26, 2002 06:29 AM
Question??? Can we return this thread to its original topic??? All this bantering is childish reminds me of one of those piss poor jerry springer/riki lake episodes. Let's try to be adult and not see who's the smartest or all knowing and just discuss the issue, the operative word being DISCUSS!!
quote: Did I make a mistake? Sure! Am I worried about it? No, I know that the parts are getting fixed, and that the problem WON'T REOCCUR. What's the big sweat?
So Swft.....What are you going to actually do differently to keep this from Re-Occuring?
Since so many board members trust your opinion, I'm shure an answer to this question will be of big help to other 1270 owners.
Uhhhh.... I don't think anybody but SWFT is out any $$ on parts, so what gives?? Let's hear what you would do before you start bashing on someone else. I'm all ears, cause I REALLY do want to know before my motor is finished!
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RED NINJAS RULE!!
posted June 26, 2002 07:33 AM
This question is NOT Bashing!!
It is a fair question....I too am a 1270 owner, and have not Grenaded my engine. I asked fair questions early on in this thread w/o any answers, the questions were simple and had a point, even in the "MY CRANKS OK" post I asked some fair , simple questions, what was the response? Nothing productive!
To answer kawachan's question:
Don't fiddle w/ your oil system to get extra H.P.
I monitor my oil system very closely, I check the level (w/ bike level and uprite) before EVERY ride, change the oil and filter every 1300-1500 mi. I run a liquid filled mechanical oil pressure guage (I don't like idiot lights) to monitor how the system is doing under all conditions. I run my level at the top line, no more/no less. W/ the high speed/high rpm rideing I do, occational drag racing and the freeway wheelies I enjoy, I won't gamble w/ running a low oil level. I have had my oil tested by (oillab.com) and have received comprehensive test results to see how my bearings are doing.
This question to Swft is productve and does get the thread back on track and out of the mud.
I recall back in the "Engine Hurt/1270 Update" tread that Swft was brief but helpful and I appreciated that. I also recall a respected friend of ours, Mr. Meyer posting a comment on the fuel regulator and how it works. He errored on his post, and reposted his mistake and that he was wrong. I respected that and it can happen to everyone. He also did not go back and change his post or edit it to make it appear differently, I respect that also. My point is, The whole thread's flow changed and got muddied up, my comment's as well as others (including the LaBusas 1270 or 1361 thread) now don't flow because of edited or entirely deleted info that Swft origially posted.
I jumpped on the "ROD BOLT STRECH" issue early because I did not want that to become an ugly rumor for 12 bashers to jump on, and they will!!
If knowone can see this point I'm sorry, I don't see another way to explain it.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted June 26, 2002 08:23 AM
Just as an aside to what you said above, that's the exact reason why when savvy posters reply to someone, they'll often quote either the entire post and break it up, or quote selected text and attribute it to whomever wrote it. Doing that accomplishes two things.
The first one is that everyone knows exactly to whom you're replying, and why. The second thing is that you have a copy of what they said that they can't change, so if they go back and try to "fix" what they said later, you have irrefutable proof that they said what they said. Unless they're an admin, of course.
That being said, I still don't see what Swft did as being wrong.
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted June 26, 2002 09:07 AM
The plan to ensure that I don't have a problem again is going to happen in two areas:
1. Crank welding/grinding
As all of you can well imagine, the crank journal has to be welded and reground. The crank specialist (he rewelds the cranks for the 1361 kits for Muzzy, btw) had some specific recommendations on how to improve the oiling intregrity of the journals. This is some information that I got second hand through MVR, so I don't have the specific details, but the gist was that he felt he could improve the side to side clearances of the rod and journal, which would help maintain oil between the rod bearings and journal. Again, this is SECOND HAND information, so I MAY edit this post if I recieve updated information.
The Masterlube system has been used successfully in many racing applications, including motorcycle racing.
In addition to the 3 quart and 2 quart racing systems shown, I beleive that there is a 1 quart system available. For information on how this system functions, please refer to the above URL.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted June 26, 2002 09:19 AM
Hey psychococksucker,
Go get a Hayabusa. You're an asshole like some of those owners. What a fuckin' dick you are. No one seems to be on your side. Why? Because you're an idiot. Leave the guy alone and drop the issue. If not, then go get a fuckin' Busa and argue like the asshole you are on LABusas' BikeTalk about how great the Busa is.
I'm through reading this thread. I enjoy comedic/informative topics. Don't like to see assholes like psycho11-12inchdickinhisass post bullshit and know that he has the same bike as we do.
posted June 26, 2002 09:26 AM
well thanks!! That is all I wanted to know. I always ran mine with 4 quarts to be sure. I do too many wheelies and I don't like being broke down.
I was leaning the way of Carillo rods, but I would only do it for the HP benefits. As of yet, I don't see any; so I guess I'll stick with the good factory ones!!
Mine will be the 1270 too, so I am interested in what made the most bang for the buck. While I have it down, looks like I will degree the cams and maybe clean up a few places. Probably lose the balancer too. I'm open to any ideas that worked for you.
Now, let's all be more cordial to each other....We all love our 12's, I just wanna beat up on BusaBoys with mine!!
____________
RED NINJAS RULE!!
posted June 26, 2002 09:49 AM
Edited By: BlackMandingoWarrior on 26 Jun 2002 10:53
Oil Accumulator/PreLube.. Certainly sounds like it may be the answer to your situation. I was reading some comments Doug M. was making about the ZX11 motor on the board he moderates and he seems to echo your assertion of additional oil capacity in an external chamber will help to eliminate future oil management issues in addition to ensuring that the is oil adaquately returned to the sump for recirculation.
"posted November 20, 2001 03:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamie,
The ZX-11 oiling "issue" has been flogged for many years and most "experts" had it all wrong. The short answer is oil level (or quantity). We learned that the ZX-11 has a tendancy to accumulate a lot of oil in the head. This can be as much as 2 quarts at high RPM. The bearings have no tolerance for zero oil pressure and you might imagine that with only a 3.5 liter capacity, if you accumulate 2 liters in the head you've only got 1.5 in the sump. It will tolerate that, BUT, if you get only a little low (1/2 liter) you will quickly run the pump pickup dry. This is avoided by the external oil drainback that we put on the right side of the cylinder head. This, along with careful attention to oil system needs (due to the addition of larger lines, coolers, etc.) has pretty much eliminated any bearing problems on the ZX-11. The ultimate solution on the cars (and our drag bikes) is the dry sump conversion which puts all the oil in an external tank with a pickup that can't un-port as well as a much larger capacity. A ZX-11 will not fail bearings as long as the pump gets oil. It's that simple.
Doug "
These comments and others on this thread suggest to me that getting oil back to the sump where it can be recirculated to the rod bearings and critical components is key to preventing failures like yours. To me 2 liters of oil in the head is overkill in lubricating the valve train components and the excess oil can be better utilized lubricating other critical components.
Best of Success in your rebuild and future race endeavors.
posted June 26, 2002 10:25 AM
Swft;
I have talked w/ Doug about both of these improvements that you have mentioned. In RACE applications I can see where a "Prelube" system would be benificial.
If I ever go into or have to go into my bottom end, I will deffinately address the side clearance issue when the crankshaft gets blueprinted.
Do you feel at this time that side clearance was the ONLY reason you had a oiling failure? Is/was there a possibility that you did runout of oil in your sump?
Hawkman;
Are you a closet homosexual or something!? I diffinately don't have to go to that low of a level to get my point across! People w/ low intelligence levels usually can't think of a better way to communicate.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted June 26, 2002 10:26 AM
Swft;
I have talked w/ Doug about both of these improvements that you have mentioned. In RACE applications I can see where a "Prelube" system would be benificial.
If I ever go into or have to go into my bottom end, I will deffinately address the side clearance issue when the crankshaft gets blueprinted.
Do you feel at this time that side clearance was the ONLY reason you had a oiling failure? Is/was there a possibility that you did runout of oil in your sump?
Hawkman;
Are you a closet homosexual or something!? I diffinately don't have to go to that low of a level to get my point across! People w/ low intelligence levels usually can't think of a better way to communicate.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted June 26, 2002 10:51 AM
With all these oiling (or lack of) issues coming to light, it makes me wonder about the problem we have when changing the oil and filter. I know most of our bikes have a problem with oil pressure after changing the oil and filter. I always fill the filter as much as possible and still my oil light is lit when starting the bike. I shut it down within a half second or so and then just bump the starter over and over until the light flashes and then start it up and the light will remain out. How much damage am I causing to the bearings by doing this? I'm sure that when most of our bikes were initially set up by the dealerships, the oil lights were on for a while. We'll never know unless we were there for the set up or we did it ourselves. Any thoughts on this? Sorry for running on so long just to ask a simple question.
posted June 26, 2002 11:02 AM
Edited By: Eric00zx12r on 26 Jun 2002 12:03
In addition to what RS is saying...do you think the problem is held to the 1270 kit being installed, or do you think a stock motor (minus pipe and pcIII)will run into the oiling problem if run for long periods of time in the higher rpms.
I don't know if the heads are changed on the 1270 kit or not...that's why I'm asking. Perhaps the stock head is designed in such a way that it doesn't keep as much oil in the head or has a better way to return oil to the sump.
I'm thinking about taking to 12 to some track schools / track days, and don't want the motor to go boom on me
posted June 26, 2002 01:49 PM
boom Its nice to see that this thread has gotten back on track. Those who have posted personal character attacks have made them selves look really dumb. I have not attacked any ones personal character as some have done. It is pointless and shows how uneducated some people are. Swift to bad about your engine explosion glad the problem has been found and hopefully it will not occur again. Have been there and done that lost a number 3 rod on my dragbike years ago and know how that feels. what is it about Kawi's and the number 3 rod. Good luck on the rebuild...............
Ps some people on this site have demonstrated why its important not to have sex with your sister.....
____________
Speed is just a question of money how fast do you want to go
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted June 26, 2002 02:25 PM
Psycho - I don't doubt that I sucked air at the pickup. And I can tell you the sequence that allowed it to happen. Let's start at the start/finish line. Coming out of the staging area, you accellerate down a long straightaway. On a yellow boxed speedo, I was seeing 185+ mph. Shutting it down for turn 1, it's one downshift before (4th), and two after the turn (2nd), and hard braking for turn 2. Coming out of two, upshift once (3rd), or you'll wear the bike for a hat, because it's up a blind rise, over a couple rollercoater whoops, then bend it into turn 3 and shift again (4th). The motor is at or near redline at this time, so you upshift again (if you have room) (5th) then it's hard on the brakes and downshift twice or three times (2nd) for turn 4, which is the first right hander. Gotta be careful, because the right side of the tire isn't as warm as the left side at this point. Out of turn 4 it's upshift (3rd), hang off the left side, and upshift again (4th) through turn 5. The back straigtaway seems very short at this speed, so I usually just let the bike bounce off the rev limiter in 4th, rather than lose time upshifting again. Turn 6 is a hairpin left, so it's downshift twice (2nd), ease the bike around and try not to spin up the tire exiting. A short blast to turn 7 (hairpin right) then another short blast to 8, which is another left. Hang off the left side. Turn 9 is technically a right, but you can just stay hanging off the left side of the bike in prep for 10, which is a big sweeper left. Leave the bike in second gear, try to be smooth and wait till you are pointed down the straight before rolling on the power. If you break the back end loose at this point, you are likely to highside right into the airfence and concrete drag race wall. Bad idea! That's the basic track layout. Now where did I get a gulp of air? Most likely, the hard cornering, extreme lean angle, and high rpm going through turn 10 pumped a lot of oil up into the head. When I would bring the bike back up for the straightaway, the monsta would rear it's head, and I'd either ride it out, or short shift twice (4th) to get it back down. Can I say for certain that's what happened? No! I wasn't inside the motor, watching what was going on. But with Doug's help, I think I got a good understanding of what LIKELY happened. And in case anyone is wondering, I'm still putting the carillo rods in the motor, and eliminating the couterbalancer. Note that nowhere have I advocated the use of the carillos over the stock rods. It's just something that I want to do.
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted June 26, 2002 03:53 PM
Let me repeat myself. I'm no expert. I was (and am) relating my experiences. If you are having your engine built, ask the mechanic doing it what he thinks.
posted June 26, 2002 07:51 PM
I agree Swft; If I ever have the need to split the cases, I too would blueprint and go w/ the best rods for the application, why not?! It's great insurance.
So will you decide on an aftermarket oiling mod or run more oil in the sump?
Also, does any one recall that Red 12 Kevin Blias Built in Florida? He was featured in Superbike Mag.
He had the engine cases Blueprinted, could this aid in oil returning to the sump quicker by cleaning up all the cast flashing inside?
Oh and I like the trip around the track reading. Cool!
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted June 26, 2002 07:54 PM
The silver 1347 will get the oil accum. in it. The 1270 bike is going to prolly get some external return lines, and maybe pinch the oil supply to the head a bit to help with the problem. This is a time honored racer trick for V8 motors such as a Ford 351C. As I recall, the Chrysler 340 had a bad prob like that too...
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