Zhooligan
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posted June 20, 2002 07:11 PM
Let us not mistake 10 seconds at the drag strip as being similar to continuous high rev running on the race track. Not to mention the significant number of miles.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 20, 2002 09:25 PM
Duration
So what about all the 12's running at Bonnivile!? They do just fine w/ the stock rods and the 1270 kit.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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swft
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posted June 21, 2002 07:22 AM
Let's do the math:
Bonneville - 1 run, 5 miles, 3 miles at full song.
Race Track - 60 laps, 2.5 miles, engine almost always at upper end of rpm range.
Will you just chill the fuck out and let the experts get their hands on the parts and figure it out?
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted June 21, 2002 12:58 PM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 21 Jun 2002 14:01
Well look who's calling the kettle black!! You yourself was acting like an "expert" starting the "Rod Bolt Strech" rumor anyway, Tisk, Tisk !!
You are kind of the touchy, pricky type eh?!
Besides, who goes to Bonneville and ONLY does one run, I think our friend Doug has logged over 40 passes on stock rods w/ a 1270 kit!!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted June 21, 2002 03:15 PM
i do declare, it's gettin mighty hot in hea. perhaps i shall step outside ahn do me some chillin...
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 05:23 AM
That's where you are fucked in the head. The fact is that the bolts *did* stretch. WHY they stretched is the real question. No, they didn't stretch because of the elevated power levels. They didn't stretch for any other reason than heat. And that heat was the result of... You figure it out... I'm not saying anything more.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 24, 2002 06:13 AM
Spoken like a TRUE "EXPERT", How interesting....How well have you mananged your oiling system? Suck any air bubbles lately!?
Sounds like the problem you keep bringing up is a SECONDARY issue!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 06:30 AM
When are you going to get it through your head that no environment can match the demands of a roadrace circuit? You can't match it on the street, at the dragstrip, and no, not even at bonneville. In my previous post, I laid it out pretty straightforward, that the motor was operated for a continuous period, at high rpm. We aren't talking about ten seconds (drag strip) or a minute (bonneville). I'm referring to a roadrace circuit, where the motor never goes below 8k rpm for over 20 minutes. And please, get off the 'expert' bullshit. I never claimed to be, and you're just being childish. I don't know why you are spasming over this, and I don't really care. My intent with this post was to document what I had *seen*. I'm waiting on the final verdict from two sources: Doug Meyer and the crankshaft expert that builds the cranks for the 1361 motor packages. I have been asked not to say anything more until all the postmortem is done on the parts, and I've refrained from offering any further opinions. Yet for some reason, you seem to be taking it pretty personally that I'm not doing so. You've offered no useful information, and continually berate me for reporting what I initially saw when I took the motor apart. I've reported more information as it's become available, yet that hasn't seemed to satisfy you. Perhaps you should be a bit more patient and wait for the information. And when I do get it, I will post it. Until then, I'm going to request that this post be closed, since you are turning it into a flame war.
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Megabyte
Pro
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posted June 24, 2002 06:40 AM
Keep on posting....
SWFT, I for one appreciate the info you've share. It's always amazed me why some board members want to rag on a guy when he's just trying to help?
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bagster
Zone Head
Posts: 630
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posted June 24, 2002 07:24 AM
human nature
when it is noted that you can get a rise out of someone, it is human nature to keep poking and poking until action ensues. (hopefully including some form of action that can be laughed at)
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
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posted June 24, 2002 07:32 AM
quote:
SWFT, I for one appreciate the info you've share. It's always amazed me why some board members want to rag on a guy when he's just trying to help?
I also appreciate the info from someone who's running our bikes on the "cutting edge" of technology. Keep up the good work Swft! 
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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rs
Expert Class
Posts: 137
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posted June 24, 2002 07:33 AM
Swft, You have every right to get upset about this one. I would be very worried if so many guys were interested in the status of my crank.
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 07:39 AM
*laughs* Thanks guys! Good point! After all it is *my* crank! 
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 24, 2002 09:19 AM
quote:
*laughs* Thanks guys! Good point! After all it is *my* crank!
and that *crank* of yours has a 2.18" *stroke*...
Even MY wife would be unhappy with that situation...
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Hawkman
Zone Head
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posted June 24, 2002 10:01 AM
quote:
So Swift........When Is Doug getting your Rod!?
hehehehe You gave him your "rod".
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 10:20 AM
The rod is in the mail, should be in his hands soon. Err...he should be getting the box with the engine parts in it soon!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 24, 2002 10:21 AM
An swft is telling the world that he has been pulling and stretching his rod...
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 10:34 AM
Yah, and it broke in half!  And I can't find the other half! I left it somewhere in Spokane...
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TReMor
Expert Class
Dazed and Confused
Posts: 115
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posted June 24, 2002 10:52 AM
Edited By: TReMor on 24 Jun 2002 11:54
What worries me is that he had to bolt it together in the first place. 
In all seriousness though, pay no attention to the naysayers, Swft, there are a lot of us who really appreciate the time and energy you put into keeping us all up to date, whatever the outcome.
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Tim -- Temecula, CA
2002 ZX-12R -- Mystic Black/ Gold
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
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posted June 24, 2002 11:51 AM
I dont understand why psycho is getting his panties in tiff over the deal anyway. It aint his fucking engine to begin with..
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 24, 2002 05:12 PM
All this crap from a bunch of wankers. This is why I talked w/ Doug, people from Kawasaki before pushing the issue w/ this "rod bolt stretch crap".
The issue here is an oiling problem, and not even swft will address it. Not that there is a problem w/ the 12R system it's self, but how the system was managed/monitored by the operator.
I strongly feel that even posting early on (labusas also)
that the primary problem is "rod bolt strech" was unfounded and not nessesary!
If you all want to take info from swft's posts, it might be time to tear down your engine and check all your clearences, especially if your running a 1270 kit! Or better yet, go out and put in $800 Carillos, even if it is not nessesary, because as you know....swft provides "Good Info" to this board.
Nice to see how many board members wait to see w/ a wet finger what way the wind will blow out of swft's rear end, before making any comments................
So swft, really, how hard would it have been to simply state what color and condition your journal was in? Or is it a fact you just don't know. Now there some GOOD info to follow. Take Note.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 06:25 PM
Edited By: swft on 24 Jun 2002 19:27
quote:
All this crap from a bunch of wankers.
Wow! So it's the board against you, is that it? Ah, I see...It's a massive conspiracy...
quote:
The issue here is an oiling problem, and not even swft will address it. Not that there is a problem w/ the 12R system it's self, but how the system was managed/monitored by the operator.
Let me make this clear: Until today, I was asked not to comment on what the problem was. A couple people wanted to look at the parts and make a full diagnosis of the problem. If you will review the posts I've made, I've never disagreed with you with regard to any oiling issues. And your assumption that I ran the bike with a low amount of oil is incorrect. Unless you've ever been roadracing, you probably don't have any idea of the basic preparations made to an endurance roadracing motorcycle. One of the most basic steps is fresh oil, filter and proper level. Anything less would be gambling with not only your life, but your teammates lives as well.
quote:
If you all want to take info from swft's posts, it might be time to tear down your engine and check all your clearences, especially if your running a 1270 kit! Or better yet, go out and put in $800 Carillos, even if it is not nessesary, because as you know....swft provides "Good Info" to this board.
I'll take that as a compliment. I can tell that you've posted a lot of info here. Did you post even once that it was your opinion that the issue might be an oiling problem? Reviewing the post, it does not appear so...
quote:
Nice to see how many board members wait to see w/ a wet finger what way the wind will blow out of swft's rear end, before making any comments................
Wow, your faith in the other board members really touches me. I think I need a hug. And you give my rear end more credit than it deserves.
quote:
So swft, really, how hard would it have been to simply state what color and condition your journal was in? Or is it a fact you just don't know. Now there some GOOD info to follow. Take Note.
On the 20th, I stated that I was waiting to hear back from experts on the basic cause of the failure. I heard back from Doug today. Until his final diagnosis, I was asked to not make any further speculations. I honored this request, and it appears that you are the only individual that took umbrage (sorry, that means 'got angry') with this. So as of today, I can tell the board that I had a 45 minute discussion with Muzzys and with the crank expert. The crank was torched, the bearing were melted, and the tensile strength of the recovered rod bolt and cap approximated old butter. What is the basic cause? In an extreme operating environment, the ZX12R, like the ZX11, does not return oil from the head to the sump fast enough. Think of it this way. The engine has 3 liters of oil to play with. Running, a certain percentage of that oil is in the top of the motor, and a certain percentage is in the bottom of the motor. What ever is left over, is in the sump. If the engine is operated in a normal riding environment, that percentage will never get to a critical level. However, if the engine is operated near or at redline for an extended period, the oil won't return from the top of the motor quickly enough. This, of course, leads to cavitation, wherein the oil pump sucks in air, with disastrous consequences. That, by the way, is not my opinion. That's the basic gist of the conversation I had. Now what does this mean? Is everyone gonna start frying cranks, busting rods, and whatever else? No, because there are very few people racing their zx12rs in endurace or even sprint races. Think back to the very first rod casualty heard of for a zx12r. A german magazine threw a rod out the motor...And I don't recall which one, but I wouldn't be suprised if it was #4. In any case, they were running the preproduction bike for an extended period of time at high rpm. Sound familiar? Face it, most riding is done in the 3k - 8k rpm range. Even riding the twisties at the gap, how long and how consistently were you above 9500 rpm? I would imagine that it was rare when you were in that range for more than 30 seconds. If you care to review my posts, you will not see me berating the basic design of the motorcycle. I don't think there is anything wrong with the basic design. But I will assert my opinion that the motor was not designed for extended (20-30 minute) operation at or near redline. If you have any experience working with automobiles, this problem was very common with certain engines. A good example would be the Ford 351C. The 351C had smaller crank journals than the 351W or 351M, and it was very common to burn up a crank racing the motor. And the problem was traced to too much oil being pumped up to the heads. We raced 351C engines in road rally events in the southeast US, and we would run two pressure guages, one on the top end of the motor, and one on the bottom end, so we could watch for any fluctuation in pressures. I've droned on with this for a bit, but I hope I can put the issue to bed. To review:
1. Noone ever disputed anything bout the oiling issue.
2. I posted what I saw when I first took the motor apart. The parts were off to the various companies that same day, with the exception of the broken parts, which were boxed and eventually mailed to Doug Meyer.
3. Your emotional outbursts have not helped you state your opinion. Had you done so in a clear and concise manner, you would have found that it would have been considered, discussed, and in my case, agreed with.
4. In the real world, there is no oiling issue with the motor. A roadracing environment, especially an endurance race, is not the real world.
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted June 24, 2002 06:49 PM
Swift and Psycho, I don't really think that you guys are on different pages. Defensiveness is really not warranted as we ALL are interested in the TRUTH concerning our bikes weaknesses.
It was reported earlier in the life of our bikes that there was an oiling problem, and so we were concerned about having bearing problems in our bikes. But in fact the real problem was some real BAD information and advice that we should run our bikes LOW ON OIL for more hp!!!!!!! That was endorsed by some reputable people and it was totally irresponsible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know for a FACT, that the 1270 kit uses MORE OIL during use than a stock bike. I have been able to easily use 1 qt per weekend under hard riding condition when i have operated my bike at higher speeds and rpms repeatedly. But, that really is no big deal. You just have to know to watch your oil levels. Secondly, The bike is able to starve for oil and keep the oil pressure light off. Especially if you have done the oil pressure mod. The sight glass MUST be watched very carefully!!! (DAILY) I know of SEVERAL zx12's that have thrown rod WITHOUT the oil light coming on and the bearings/journals be burned. But, truth be told it was a low oil problem. Funny though, they seem to be the rod by the counter shaft balancer.
Swft, was yours number 3 or 4.
I personally don't have issue with either party, as truth and info is all I am interested in......
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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swft
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posted June 24, 2002 07:05 PM
It was rod #4.
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted June 24, 2002 09:41 PM
Easy men,
First, I'm no metallurgist, but I've seen more than enough broken parts in my career and discussed the failure modes thereof to have a pretty fair amount of confidence in my opinion. Even though I had a pretty good idea of what happened from Swft's pictures, I wanted to actually see the parts before I let the clutch out on my pie hole.
I saw them today.
Anyway, Swft has pretty accurately described our conversation so I won't review that in reference to the reason for the lack of oil. But basically here is the "order" of failure.
First, the rod gets a momentary gulp of air as described above. The bearing begins to scuff a little and starts to overheat. The clearance may go up and the hydrodynamic load bearing ability of the bearing starts to go away. Then the bearing REALLY overheats and begins to melt. The big end of the rod turns a deep blue. The bearing completely "goes away" and the rod begins to hammer away on the bearingless big end. THEN the now softened and relaxed bolts break and in some cases the nuts will actually have spun off because there is no longer any stretch on the bolts keeping them tight. The rod cap jams against the case and "bang" the rod breaks in half. Expensive big noise. This may all happen in a couple of seconds or might start one lap (or 1/4 mile pass) and finish the next.
A rod failure? Nope. A bolt failure? Nope again. An oil SYSTEM failure? I don't think so. A failure to understand the needs of the engine and plan for them? Probably. That's racin'.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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