fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 08, 2002 10:39 AM
huge idff dave.. this was discussed and solved at lenght over a year ago by Cliff Randal.
   
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 10, 2002 02:01 AM
zx1012r, I was away for this long weekend. I'll see if i can get the drive for the notebook tonight.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted June 10, 2002 03:41 AM
I have a slight flat spot around 2500 still but, with Doug's map, the rest of the way is smooth sailing. I never see 0% throttle mid corner so I will have to go out and try to intentionally recreate the high revs problem and report back. My mods: Air filters, Kleen Air, PCIII, SS Muzzy's exhaust, Muzzy's ignition advancer.
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
 
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Y2KZX12R
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posted June 14, 2002 01:00 PM
For anyone who might care... an update on the fuel injector cut out problem with the factory zx12r computer.
After skewing the TPS and tweaking the map so the computer never sees 0% throttle the bike was much better. The o2 sensor indicated the bike was still lean but now it was at least getting some fuel. So I added some fuel in the 2% column and the A/F ratio started to come up. This basically requires a total redo of the 2% column to mimic the 0% column at idle but provide the required fuel at higher rpms.
There is some slightly rich spots in the 5% area but I'm working the map still to remove them. Its going to take a while longer for me to get this dialed in 100%.
At this point I think I can get rid of the injector shutdown all together. It looks very promising.
If you dont ride around the twisties at 7,000-10,000 then chances are you never noticed it anyways so I wouldnt bother with it. But you road race type guys that have complained about this problem will like it.
I'm trying to comeup with a simple way to achieve the same results so that anyone can get these results without installing an o2 sensor and monitor for road use.
It may be possable, but no guarantees at this point.
I have to back track and try another approach to see if I get the same results. Like I said its looking pretty good thou.
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PaulVincent
Expert Class
Posts: 135
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posted June 14, 2002 01:21 PM
Y2K, Believe me when I state that it is likely that most ZX12R owners really appreciate your efforts on this. So, best of luck!
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WhiteLightning
Novice Class
Posts: 41
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posted June 14, 2002 02:04 PM
lazy
Y2KZX12R-
Man, I really appreciate all the trouble you're going through. As a mechanical engineer, I've built my fair share of things. Also, I've "tim the toolman taylor'd" many things to make it bigger better, etc. But, I have a confession....
I'm lazy. I'm either gunna replace the engine management system, or continue with my cheat. See, I don't have a problem with the injectors turning off. I think it even makes sense. But, it makes an already harsh/sensitive throttle even worse.
My solution? Leave the bike as is most of the time. When I'm pushing hard and put my game face on? I just pull the "choke" or idle up lever. Presto, problem gone. Its the best of both worlds. Lazy, yes. Perfect? No.
The only problem is SLIGHT loss of engine braking. But, honestly I'm ok with that. I've had race bikes that wouldn't idle at any normal rpm so I'm kinda used to the elevated idle when attacking a course.
Ok, I'm done, I've confessed, I'm lazy,
WL
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted June 14, 2002 02:04 PM
 Edited By: EastBayDave on 14 Jun 2002 15:05
quote:
Y2K, Believe me when I state that it is likely that most ZX12R owners really appreciate your efforts on this. So, best of luck!
You can say that again, THANK YOU Y2K!!!
Keep those reports coming...
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted June 14, 2002 02:44 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 14 Jun 2002 15:45
Dave,
The bike I refer to as "My bike" is just that, my street bike. It's 2000 with a pipe, PC3R, K&N's, cams degreed to 105/100, and the head is milled .5mm (this is because I live at 3500 feet and routinely ride to 7500 feet. It reckon it just brings me back to about "normal"). Makes 175 on a local DJ 150.
Honest Y2, mine doesn't do it any more. The tip-in is beautiful at high R's and everywhere else. I'm not clear, have you tried my map or not? Not that there's anything exotic about it. Be glad to send it to you if not.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 15, 2002 05:30 AM
Doug, Maybe I didnt try your current setup. I tried some numbers from one of your maps over a year ago. I'm not shure what version map you had at that point. I also tried Cliff Randals sugestions.
My email is changed now. Its JGilnack@earthlink.net
Fire the map this way and I'll try it. Thanks
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kawair
Parking Attendant
Posts: 26
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posted June 15, 2002 06:32 AM
I've got some feedback on this. I've run two engines in my 12 - one stock with Akro pipe, ign. advanced and the TPS slightly advanced(?) & no PCIII. The other engine I'm currently running is a 1270 with same Akro pipe, ign. advance, and PCIII. I advanced the TPS shortly after breaking in the bike with the stock engine. I never noticed the high RPM throttle shut-down glitch at all with this engine (Because of TPS advance ?). When I swapped in the 1270 engine with factory TPS setting & PCIII, I immediatly noticed the glitch ! Huge momentary dead spot when shutting off & back on quickly at higher RPMs. Keep us posted on your solutions, Jim !
PS - I'll try WhiteLightnings idea - sounds like that just might work as a quick fix.
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Y2KZX12R
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 17, 2002 09:48 AM
Kawair, thanks for the input.
The bike was on the back burner this weekend. I have several large projects going right now and i have to shuffle my time.
I still have to get to the friggen dyno also!
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
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Posts: 3762
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posted July 18, 2002 07:18 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 18 Jul 2002 20:19
Ok, After dyno testing the driveability/TPS issues this past weekend, it backed up what the "on the road testing" over the last month showed and, I found a way to make the factory ECU not shut off the injectors at closed throttle.
I wasnt able to get the answers to some very key questions that would have made this whole thing easyier and quicker to figure out. So I had to work around some issues.
I'll post more on this soon.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted July 18, 2002 08:02 PM
thanks for the update! this issue was actually bothering me ALOT the last week. in my case i get it all over the rpm range, and it's very disturbing. it makes it downright difficult to ride intraffic, & i cant make fine changes during a wheelie, so i inevitably end up goin too high then come crashin down. looking forward to ur description of the solution!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 28, 2002 05:03 PM
Well, after I dont know how many hours of testing and tweaking I have to say that there is still one spot that I cant remove the off/on fuel problem.
That spot is at 6000. The first rpm where the injectors shut off at 0%. But the problem can be removed almost completely above 6500.
What I did was move the 0% column numbers to the 2% column and set the TPS to 1.138vdc.
The trigger voltage for 1% is 1.101 and 2% is 1.138 3% is 1.158
So this kept the injectors from shutting off and removed the off/on surge.
To compensate the 5% column had to be modified quite a bit as well and the 10% needed very little changes.
The only draw back was that the timing map was skewed and the engine wanted more timing.
So the driveability suffers but the off/on fuel issue was better.
But all in all I cant say that it was worth it.
I talked with a friend about sending a dummy signal above 5000 rpm to deliver minimum fuel. I just dont have the time to develop it now.
Tearinitup, have you any ideas?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted July 28, 2002 06:53 PM
The reason I haven't had a real problem is probably twofold. First most of my riding is above 5500 feet and my power is low, second is very seldom do I use first gear, the top of second and third for the tight stuff for me. It is harsh but I am constantly adjusting the throttle through the corner and I also have the rear brake clamped down when I apply power to help me adjust my speed. I think the combination of all of these makes it bearable.
DOUG ??? I was really thinking of milling my head to help make up for the altitude. It seems that you did it and like the result. Anything else to say about it???
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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frEEK
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted July 28, 2002 06:57 PM
so if i understand correctly, the only remaining problems are the 0% at 6000rpm and timing? can u compensate for the timing by mechanically adjusting the timing with ur original timing mod then adjusting the rest with the pc3r?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 28, 2002 09:10 PM
Ted,
Yes, my head is cut .5mm. That kind of mitigates the effect of me living at 3500-4000 feet. Recently I took my bike to sea level (Laguna) WOW! I had never ridden it at sea level with the clipped head. Very snappy.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 29, 2002 02:07 AM
Freek, Yea thats a possability. My bike is still mechanicaly advanced.
The real solution is to just replace the ECU with an after market setup. I have to decide if I'm keeping this bike now or not. I dont usually keep a bike for even this long. But I like the 12r except for the injection system.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted July 29, 2002 07:32 AM
quote:
Ted,
Yes, my head is cut .5mm. That kind of mitigates the effect of me living at 3500-4000 feet. Recently I took my bike to sea level (Laguna) WOW! I had never ridden it at sea level with the clipped head. Very snappy.
Doug
I think I gotta do it, Doug, Y2K, do you think milling the head will change my cam timing enough to worry about? The reason I ask is the bike runs flawlessly and I wouldn't want the slight mechanical effect it has on the cam chain that lowering that head does, to negate any gains.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted July 29, 2002 06:58 PM
So how many choices are there for wholesale replacement of the ECU? There's Muzzy's EMS, and I guess you can spend the $$ for Motec. Anyone know of anything else?
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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posted August 01, 2002 02:10 AM
Swft, well for the automotive end theres several. but size is a factor for bikes.
Muzzys is a fair price compared to what else is out there. Some systems are in the several thousand dollar range.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 31, 2002 04:38 AM
Ted, sorry didnt mean to ignore ya.
Reducing the deck height or milling the head will retard the cams. Its very minimal but thats the direction they will move in. Thats good news. It increases the intake valve to piston clearance.
Instead of milling the head and all the added expense and labor involved, just remove the block shim. Its .010" and will yield .5 increase in static CR.
Just watch the intake valve clearance if you do this. Keep the intake cam at no less than 104 if you do this. The exhaust has lots of clearance.
you may want to run 104/102, or if you have the room 103/102 for that altitude.
Hows your off/on transition at 8000 rpm at that altitude?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 31, 2002 04:40 AM
Swift, whats the sniffer show on the dyno when the throttle gos to 0 at 8000 rpms? My meter shows off the scale lean.
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01silverZX12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 7
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posted August 20, 2009 11:37 AM
PM appears to be down. Just obtained a 2001 12 with a Ti Muzzy system. Trying to minimize the throttle on/off.
Doug, can I still get your PC maps?
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