Y2KZX12R
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 02, 2002 08:40 AM
Poll Question:
00-01 FI Question
Ok, just a quick and painless poll.
My bike has a nasty 0% throttle FI glitch that I cant remove. When I'm at about 8500 rpm mid turn and I'm off the throttle (0%) and about to roll it back on. As soon as it comes off 0% throttle the fuel SNAPS back on like a light switch.
Its very un-nerving, I guess is the term.
Its been there from day one.
Its the only "real" flaw my bike has to me so far.
Maybe its just my bike?
Does anyone else notice or sislike this?
I know swift said he had it.
Hey maybe this is the real Y2K bug?
Poll Results:
 5 votes (16%)
I have no trouble above 6500 0% throttle roll on.
16 votes (52%)
I have this trouble above.
2 votes (6%)
I havent checked for it yet.
4 votes (13%)
I fixed it with an electronic device.
4 votes (13%)
I have a factory exhaust system still, and didnt notice it.
   
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EastBayDave
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Posts: 2245
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posted June 03, 2002 05:37 AM
I hate this problem! As I ride almost exclusively twisties, it's a real PITA. It's bad enough that it could possibly lead to loss of control. It's a wonder no one has sued KAW over it yet; nor has there been a recall.
I wish there was a way to fix it besides PCIIIr/etc., but I heard someone say even with the PCIIIr it didn't help much. I'd get a bellcrank from an 02' & get a new one machined, but I don't have access. Perhaps someone out there works at a dealer & could "borrow" one for a few days? (hint!)
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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Y2KZX12R
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 03, 2002 07:59 AM
EBD, Yea it is a pain in the ass.
It makes ya have to keep the revs down in the twisties.
If this problem was on a 600 or 750 where you have to keep the revs above 8000 all the time it would make the bike unrideable. But the 12r has enough torque below 6000 that its an option to come off the apex in whatever gear keeps the revs at 5000.
After getting off my buddies zx-9 that is dialed in sweet I just want to rip the FI off the 12r.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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magzx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 252
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posted June 03, 2002 09:05 AM
Try the Cliff Randall PC mod where he put 25's in the 0%, 2%, and 5% column. At 2%, he started at 5000 or 5500 rpm and at 5%, he started at 6500 rpm. Not sure where he started at 0%. Some people on the board said that it worked.
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Mark
'03 ZX-12R
'12 1199S
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zx1012r
Expert Class
Posts: 125
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posted June 03, 2002 09:52 AM
Y2K,
Same prob here. I've learned to live with it I guess. How about steady cruisin rpm around 2-5000 rpm? I can't seem to get that running well. Kinda burbly. Have any good maps you could send my way? I have yosh, pc111r, block offs, k&n's, heat blanket.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted June 03, 2002 10:33 AM
Now that I've change to a 17t...
... it gets a lil' more complicated and un-nerving.
I've tried to "condition" myself to not chop the throttle all the way and roll it on smoother. I've also tried both higher (9K) and lower (4K)RPMs, but I think the "glitch" goes beyond the TPS of 0% or if even has anything to do with the TPS perecentages in certain cells. I could be a "rapid transition" thing.
Needless to say, I am clueless about such and my lack of riding skills makes it difficult to determine what it is.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 03, 2002 11:31 AM
magzx12r, I've added +45 from 5000 up and it still goes flat out lean with closed throttle above 6000.
I think the injectors shut off at 0% above 6000 rpm. It might be an emitions related.
I've tried modifying the vacuum signal to the regulator but it did nothing.
zx1012r, Yea I have a map that I've tweaked over the last season and this season.
Email me at Jgilnack@earthlink.net and I'll send it to you.
I told some other folks I'd send it to them also but I dont think I ever did.?? I think I forgot about it and never sent it. I dont remember who it was but if they email me again I'll send it right away this time.
red, I think I have it pretty well nailed down to a 0% 6000+ problem. No matter how smooth I roll it back on it "SNAPS" back on the power.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted June 03, 2002 02:59 PM
I feel like I've pretty much eliminated it with our map/pipe combination. A lot of trial and error. It's not perfect at 2500 but the rest of the time it feels like, like, well CARBURETORS!.
It's the map we've been sending out on request.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted June 03, 2002 05:01 PM
quote:
I feel like I've pretty much eliminated it with our map/pipe combination. A lot of trial and error. It's not perfect at 2500 but the rest of the time it feels like, like, well CARBURETORS!.
It's the map we've been sending out on request.
Doug
quote:
I'd get a bellcrank from an 02' & get a new one machined, but I don't have access. Perhaps someone out there works at a dealer & could "borrow" one for a few days? (hint!)
Hey Doug, sounds like a plan for a new part for Muzzys. I'd bet you could sell at least 40-50 of them to 00'/01' owners. Just borrow the one off of the Muzzys bike, & get your buds in the machine shop to go to work, & come up with a billet piece... 
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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zx1012r
Expert Class
Posts: 125
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posted June 03, 2002 05:12 PM
Doug,
I have the Yosh setup but can you send me the map so I could use it for comparison purposes? I'd get a dyno map done but I haven't the time right now not to mention the cash. Still not sure if that would help in the areas I'm working on.
Here's a question. When doing the maps (i.e. dynojet supplied or Muzzy etc.) does having the Kleen Air system intact or removed have an effect on the O2 sniffer? If the maps supplied with the powercommanders are done with the Kleen intact does that result in a slightly more rich map since the exhaust has more oxygen introduced?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted June 03, 2002 06:01 PM
ZX1012r, that is a possability about the introduction of air into the exhaust. Not all the oxygen is going to be used up. The system only alows air into the exhaust part time under low vacuum conditions. So it wouldnt always have an effect.
It wouldnt really matter if the map was developed with the system disabled and then used with the system enabled, I wouldnt think.
But the other way around and it might lead the o2 into thinking the A/F ratio was off.
The car makers ad air during engine warmup with air injection (mechanically) and also dump air at times into the exhaust AFTER the O2 and before the cat.
In my case its a non issue anyway.
Doug, So you dont have this problem with your map?
Try this... roll completely off the throttle at 8500 rpm and SLOWLY roll back into it at 7500 or so.
Just like mid turn but you could even do it on the straight.
Under this condition my bike is full lean. At 0% and then as it rolls back on it jumps to life. Its like a 2 stroke. Its very repeatable and its getting predictable.
Mag, I've tried adding fuel in the 5% and 2% columns but it runs wicked rich after the throttle leaves 0% and its still lean at 0%. And the snap of the fuel coming back on is still there the same.
I've been trying to dial it out for 9 months now. I've come to the conclusion that the injectors shut off above 6500 at 0% throttle possably for emitions reasons. At least this is untill someone else convinces me otherwise. I hope someone can.
Doug do you have an O2 on your 12?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 03, 2002 06:07 PM
fixed it with cliff randal's help and the pc3.
Ps>... wish I would have never drilled out my stock pipe.. .made it way harder to solve,.
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sleezyrider
Novice Class
Mean Motor Scooter
Posts: 79
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posted June 03, 2002 06:26 PM
??
Fish, do you still have the stock pipe on your 12??
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 03, 2002 06:35 PM
yes
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted June 03, 2002 07:01 PM
zx1012r, I'd try leaning it out at your cruise rpms at 2 and 5%. I tried the Cliff fattening up thing and it didn't help at all. It made the same gurgling sound while cruising at steady highway speeds. Fat, way fat.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 05, 2002 04:14 PM
up
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magzx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 252
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posted June 06, 2002 09:27 AM
Has anybody fitted the 2002 throttle assembly to their 2000/2001? It is supposed to have a cam to cause a longer pull for the early throttle positions and tighten up near full throttle. I heard that this was a fix for the off-on transition problem.
____________
Mark
'03 ZX-12R
'12 1199S
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EastBayDave
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Posts: 2245
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posted June 06, 2002 09:48 AM
 Edited By: EastBayDave on 6 Jun 2002 10:50
quote:
Has anybody fitted the 2002 throttle assembly to their 2000/2001? It is supposed to have a cam to cause a longer pull for the early throttle positions and tighten up near full throttle. I heard that this was a fix for the off-on transition problem.
...anyone, anyone?quote:
Hey Doug, sounds like a plan for a new part for Muzzys. I'd bet you could sell at least 40-50 of them to 00'/01' owners. Just borrow the one off of the Muzzys bike, & get your buds in the machine shop to go to work, & come up with a billet piece...
Well if Rob/Dougie & friends have no response; I figure they're not interested. Someone on this site must be a machinist!??!??! Someone beg, borrow, or steal a bellcrank, & take it to be built. I will buy one! Couldn't be more than $100 to have a machinist make one. Do not we ALL want this issue solved?
Some one get me one; & I will take it to a machinist. I just do not have access to one... One of you must work at a dealership, salvage yard, etc. & can get your hands on one for a week or two...heeelllloooo!
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 06, 2002 11:03 AM
It isnt an issue of the speed at which the throttle blades are opening from the closed position. I have a pretty smooth throttle control hand. All it takes is a few 50 mph highsides at the track and its amaizing how quickly you learn to be smooth with the throttle.
The problem I'm talking about is an injection problem. Its directly related the factory computer above 6000 rpm. And the fact that the pc-III can not add fuel above 6000 rpm at 0% throttle. The ECU just doesnt accept any changes in this area.
But it wouldnt be a bad idea to get some of those throttle pulleys made in any case.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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dougmeyer
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moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted June 06, 2002 12:23 PM
We have an interest in the throttle pull, just not the time. We want to get it done, but don't seem to be able to fit it in.
Y2 I know what you're talking about, mine doesn't do it anymore. Did you try our map, and not find it satisfactory or am I missing something?
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Tearinitup
Expert Class
VP Code Monkey
Posts: 298
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posted June 06, 2002 01:00 PM
quote:
Its directly related the factory computer above 6000 rpm. And the fact that the pc-III can not add fuel above 6000 rpm at 0% throttle. The ECU just doesnt accept any changes in this area.
The Power Commander can in fact change fuel anywhere in the map. The problem with the zx12 is that it actually turns the injectors OFF at non-idle 0% throttle. It only turns them back on when you twist a little or when the engine slows down enough that it decides it needs to idle, and when they come back on...BAM power is back.
I am going to try to turn my tp sensor so that the ecu never turns the injectors off. Then I will remap it to fix the fuel curve everywhere. Then I can change the fuel at 0% decel and see if I can fix it.
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted June 06, 2002 08:28 PM
Aha! Maybe we're getting somewhere now.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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Posts: 3762
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posted June 06, 2002 08:32 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 6 Jun 2002 21:36
Doug, yea I've tried alot of maps and numbers. I've been working on this problem sence august 2000 when I got the pc-III hoping I could finally get rid of the problem. It didnt go away when I put the pipe on. Infact it got worse. I've tried adding fuel and removing fuel with the pc-III.
I tried buffering the vacuum signal to the fuel pressure reg. so as not to drop the fuel rail pressure at high manifold vacuum mid turn. I changed the bypass pressure. I tried ignition timing changes.
I've thought of back signaling the injectors with a "base" or dummy pulse etc.
Tearin it up, So I was right. The friggin signal is off at the injectors! Damnit. WTF
Like I said before, this has to be for emitions. Just great.
That means a back signal will work but be difficult to dial in.
Or, I like your idea about never letting the tPS to see zero!
I think your on to somthing. I Ran the bike like this for 4 months before I got the pc-III. And at that time it was for a lazzy area around 3200-3500.
I'm gonna have to put some time aside to see if your idea might work.
So if the idle is set and then the tps is set at 1.050 or so and the pc-III is calibrated 0%-100% and then the tps is brought back up to1.086 the pc-III will see say... 1% all the time!!!
Damn.
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zx1012r
Expert Class
Posts: 125
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posted June 07, 2002 05:35 AM
Doug, How can I get your map to try?
Y2K, Find your floppy drive yet?
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted June 08, 2002 06:11 AM
Appreciate all the info guys, really!
Interesting how most of you say mapping doesn't cure it; but Doug says it does? If I remember correctly Doug, your bike is far, far from a stock engine?
Reason I ask is right now my engine (as is most it seems) is stock except K&N's & Akra pipe. Sure, someday I'll put in the 1270 or 1361 kit in but I won't have the bux for some time.
If the bellcrank is not a (at least partial) cure, why would KAW add it? It MUST help somehow...? How many of you really felt a helpful difference in the high rpm on/off throttle application from mapping alone?
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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