shane661
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posted March 11, 2007 12:22 PM
 Edited By: shane661 on 11 Mar 2007 13:23
I am only interested in the 40 shot, dry. No more. Is that still pretty safe with timing/PC3 Changes? I am only running 1-mile events.
Is the Muzzy dry kit "less" safe ( for a 1-Mile event) than a system that sprays the N20 prior to the filters?
Pardon my ignorance on this stuff....
  
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zrexpilot
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posted March 11, 2007 01:14 PM
quote:
Yes, it does. But piston damage also happens in seconds (or less). Also, keep in mind where the sensor is and where the N2O is directed. I gotta tell you, at Bonneville not many people have had successful use of dry only over the long haul. You know how long you have to be on the bottle. 10 seconds? More like 20 or more if you have the room. I can't tell you how many burned pistons I have seen out there even with wet kits. You absolutely will junk some parts finding the fastest combination.
Hey, I'm not saying don't do this stuff, I'm just trying to get you guys to do it right the first time. It's WAY cheaper that way.
Well which is it ? piston damage in seconds or less or over 20 seconds ?
I,m going with seconds or less. Incorrect air fuel ratios and you'll have a melt down, I dont think it matters if its for 20 seconds or more.
And what is right the first time ? New fancy pistons aint going to help nor are good connecting rods or valve springs. detonation is detonation you will still melt a piston if air fuel is incorrect.
I do agree with you on the bikes ability to compensate for NOS, aint gonna happen.
On that same note lots of yahoos have bolted 40 shots on with no other compensations for fuel, lots of dry kits claim the bike will compensate, which I dont believe is true.
40 shot is very small, we dont pull any timing on a 40 shot and run U4 and havent had one problem, we just added a few numbers on the map on the big end.
back to the original question, I believe you can run 60 dry if the air fuel is correct. Probably with only 2 dg timing pulled and c12. c 12 alone will fatten up the bike because its thinner for no other word I could think of. C 12 flows through jets or injectors at a faster rate than pump gas. but still put it on a dyno with a sniffer, start with the smaller jets and work your way up bumping numbers on the map on the big end. Or just bump the map a whole bunch and start working up on the jet size untill ratios are ok and stop there. That would determine exactly how much the stock fuel delivery system can handle for your particular bike.
The stock motor can handle it, this I do believe.
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shiphteey
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posted March 11, 2007 05:30 PM
Doug....I think we are still miscommunjcating...let me re-explain.
I have been running a 40 shot DRY now for a WHILE. My builder has my motor apart, he said the pistons and valvetrain look GREAT! @ Maxton I run on the spray from 3rd gear thru 6th for about 18 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0UZ74OJmHc
@ Bonneville I ran in 6th gear for 32 seconds on the button, only letting off the button briefly "Just in case" since I had never held the button down that long (10 mph headwind meant I was on it longer than "normal")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz5g2Yibobw
When I say I want to upgrade the fuel system (pump, injectors, etc) I am STILL referring to my simple, inexpensive and reliable DRY SYSTEM! The fuel has been "bumped up" so far with a PC3R, timing has been taken out with the same device.
Given this information, are you still asserting that if I bump up to a 60 shot DRY and still run the same proportion of richness and timing taken out so I have the same or similar A/F ratio that it would STILL all fall apart even with an upgraded fuel system? I'm not sure if you are confusing a dry and wet system (no disrespect). I'd be shooting more nitrous down the ram air but my mapping would be even more rich off the button so when I hit the button, the A/F ratio would lean out to normal levels instead of running pig rich.
On a side note I too have heard of people running 20-40 shot w/out increasing the fuel supply in any way, shape or form.....you couldn't PAY me to do that!
A.
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NINJA12
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posted March 11, 2007 06:08 PM
I think what Doug is saying is that your engine don't care How you get the EXTRA FUEL for the nitrous its a wet system. Rich map, high pressure fuel system or thru the Nitrous nozzels. ONCE YOU ADD EXTRA FUEL IT's NOT DRY ANYMORE!
I don't expect everyone to understand this as my own brother can't accept there is more than one way to add fuel. Even worst is the 60 hp wet is more powerful than 60 hp Dry.
I have used 60hp on stock piston in the 1/4 . I have no idea wheather it will holdup in the mile.
Good luck!
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shiphteey
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posted March 11, 2007 06:14 PM
ON THE CONTRARY! IF I'M ONLY SHOOTING NITROUS DRY (MEANING JUST A NITROUS JET, NO ADDITIONAL FUEL JET LIKE A WET KIT) AND COMPENSATING FOR THE NEEDED FUEL WITH MAPPING AND WHAT NOT, IT IS STILL A "DRY" KIT!
THAT MEANS THE NITROUS SYSTEM IS ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ADDING NITROUS....IT IS UP TO ME OR WHOEVER TO ADD FUEL IN SOME OTHER MANNER! ADDING FUEL SEPERATE FROM NITROUS DOESN'T MAKE IT A WET KIT!
I didn't mean for this to become an arguement about dry vs wet (this is quite silly as you can shoot 90-100 hp "dry", this is ALREADY KNOWN...I just want to stay on the subject that why or why won't it hold up in a 12 over a mile if you get your a/f ratio on par with n/a guys, if not richer EVEN ON THE BUTTON!!?!??!
A.
A.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 11, 2007 07:29 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 11 Mar 2007 20:30
ALL I'm saying is- As you guys add more juice you're closing in on a limit. As you add fuel you move the limit outward. Experience shows that the limit without any dedicated fuel adders is about 60 hp. Add some fuel, move the limit. About the most you can do with a full on nitrous+fuel wet kit is about 200 hp. Somewhere in there you'll find the limit for YOUR method and combination.
This whole wet / dry thing is just a matter of definition. I think if you look at the various system manufacturer catalogs and go back to the origins of these kits you'll find that the general definition is that if you add additional fuel to compensate for the added nitrous its wet. If not, it's dry. Just splittin' hairs to argue. The thing is, at some point you've got to add fuel or it blows up. The OEM fuel system is limited. You are just removing your margin of safety. Sooner or later you find the limit. Keep us posted on the outcome of your research.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 11, 2007 08:07 PM
I think what your looking for shiphteey is the first you would probably be limited by your fuel requirments over a mile, second the cast pistons are limited to what some people would say is a 70 HP nitrous increase, third by the valve (some would also say by the two piece design), and fourth would be valve float if its not on a progressive set up.
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shiphteey
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posted March 11, 2007 08:43 PM
Ok I think we are getting somewhere! DM, what I am trying to get at is "what" that limit is in terms of nitrous shot.
Trn: A few things. Are you talking about fuel requirements over a mile if I did not have a power commander or add fuel....just simply spray nitrous dry and pray? Or are you also saying that even with a power commander I am still essentially at the limit? From what I hear spraying 40 ... espeically in the higher gears where you also have ram air....is effectively running the fuel system's maximum capacity....and that no matter how much mapping you do with a power commander, the stock injectors/pump, etc are taxed to the limit so it doesn't matter if I richedn it up on the power commander....the fuel system of the bike can not keep adding any more.
Something else....you said "the cast pistons". 00 pistons are FORGED. I too have heard the 70 hp rule before but what I am concerned about is the duration of time. If this was 1/4 action I wouldn't even waste time posting....but the mile is different.
As far as the valvetrain is concerned, I have heard the valves themselves are much more durable....its the soft valve springs that should be upgraded first, which I am doing.
Maybe I need to rephrase all this. Based on my mapping and state of tune with a stock fuel system and now stiffer valve springs, aside from the proposed progressive set-up, what would be the next step to running more spray on stock pistons for an entire mile w/out it popping?
Injectors or pump? And as DM is alluding to..."Add some fuel, move the limit"....but up to WHAT level? What is the limit the stock pistons can take over a mile on nitrous if you upgrade the fuel system (in whatever manner is necessary to make it hold up)?
What would be the most cost effective or "best" way to bump up the fuel to keep things safe.....which then gets back to the core issue....how much could I go up to on stock FORGED 2000 pistons?
I'm getting a headache from all this!
A.
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zrexpilot
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posted March 11, 2007 10:02 PM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 11 Mar 2007 23:15
all modern sport bikes have forged pistons.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 12, 2007 06:17 AM
The only thing tghat keeps me coming back is Zrex's avatar.
The fuel specifics requirement doesn't change just because you're adding oxygen in the form of N2O.
You need roughly .5 lbs per HP per hour in additional fuel flow, just like always. If you add 100 hp you need 50 pounds per hour in additional fuel flow.
(roughly, to be safe)
Get a look at the NOS catalog. It has some very complete instructions on sizing your parts.
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Wideout
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posted March 12, 2007 08:40 AM
quote:
On a side note I too have heard of people running 20-40 shot w/out increasing the fuel supply in any way, shape or form.....you couldn't PAY me to do that!
A.
On an '00-01, you couldn't pay me to do that either. 
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 12, 2007 09:05 AM
I would say a Muzzy fuel pump should do the trick for your fuel needs with everything you said above.
I still think they are Cast, but I am probably wrong. If I am then they are kind of weak compared to other "forged" pistons.
If you have the head off and are getting stiffer springs, I would say it would be wise to get ss valves. As myself and a few other people I know have had the stems let go.
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shiphteey
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posted March 12, 2007 09:49 AM
Tastes great, less filling!
"Upon closer examination of my silver book, page 46 states that "To make sure it stays together during long blasts, we used carburised connecting rods AND FORGED PISTONS."
I have had some say the valves are ok for my application and the springs are what is really needed....that being said I'll look into them at the end of the season when I go BIG! Right now I'll plan my way closer and closer to a 60 shot and NO MORE!
Thanks everyone.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 12, 2007 09:54 AM
I do believe the Silver book is wrong in that regard, but as I have said before I am an idiot and wrong more often than not.
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VincentHill
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posted March 13, 2007 12:38 PM
I think I posted to this but do not see it! I ran a 60 shot at Maxton for about a year and no problems on Stock Pistons making 225 to 230 Max HP Yes I would seriouslu suggest getting a Muzz Man Fuel Pump so that you are at the performance middle as opposed to end of the fuel amount!
Yes, the SIlver Book does stste Forged Pistons. They look cast to me but are very strong with little growth! I needed plus 2 bars on the PC3 to adjust for the NOS
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shane661
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posted March 13, 2007 12:40 PM
How many gears did you spray through with that 60 shot?
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zrexpilot
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posted March 13, 2007 02:52 PM
Another way to do it is plug off the gas tank and install a bosch in line fuel pump.
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shiphteey
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posted March 13, 2007 04:01 PM
Fack it, getting the Muzzy Fuel Pump for $90 from Matt
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pmkin10r
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posted March 13, 2007 06:41 PM
I believe, with the exception of some preproduction bikes, and possibly an initial batch of 00. All ZX-12R's have "precision cast pistons. I heard this was to create a more thermally stable piston less sensitive to break-in. This was supposidly prompted by the seizing of a couple of pre-production engines, one resulting in the death of a German moto-journalist. Nobody was too keen on Kawi's initial 3000 mile breakin recomendations on the bike.
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shiphteey
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posted March 13, 2007 08:25 PM
Wow....anyone have a link or info on that journalist or at least a name?
RIP....even if I am several years later....journalists like that deserve to be recognized for being the guinea pig and playing russian roulette one too many times. Lots of balls, lots of courage and we have all benefited from a "safer" 12 than what would have been released to us.
A.
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pmkin10r
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posted March 14, 2007 12:16 AM
Ship, unsuccessfully searched for link. Read this on the net several years ago. Hope I'm not spreading internet bunk and someone else may have some recollection of the story.
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VincentHill
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posted March 14, 2007 07:06 AM
quote:
Ship, unsuccessfully searched for link. Read this on the net several years ago. Hope I'm not spreading internet bunk and someone else may have some recollection of the story.
I remember that and Kawasaki sent NEw Stickers to us for a 2,000 Mile break in. Several bikes did seize Pistons I never equated this to the Forged Pistons?? I still have the Stickers on my Tack!
Ali, this did happen and is a Fact!
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VincentHill
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posted March 14, 2007 07:06 AM
I sprayed 4th 5th & 6th!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 14, 2007 11:25 AM
I sprayed a 70 shot on a stock motor with a progressive set up from 20% -100% in 2 seconds (very smooth) in every gear, but it would pop the front up in first and second so I would short shift it. I managed 195 and heavy change, but I am by far no light weight.
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entropy
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posted March 14, 2007 11:30 AM
quote:
... but I am by far no light weight.
yep, Gary is a card carrying member of TFA!
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