shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 08, 2007 08:55 PM
Maximum HP for A1 (stock pistons and fuel system)...kinda long....
As many may know I run a 40 shot. Many in the 12 circle generally accept the most one should spray the stock motor is about a 40 shot, mainly due to the limited amount of fuel the fuel injectors can shoot given the stock pump (I believe in bone stock form they are up on the 80ish percent range as is).
If one were to beef up the fuel system of the A1 models, then the next area of weakness is the valve springs with their 30ish lbs of seat pressure....especially in cases of over-revving like with an extended ecu.
Next up as far as an area of weakness as far as the top of the motor is concerned are the pistons. While many have shot big shots for very short periods of time (80-90hp) muzzy and others have generally felt that they can take about 70 hp before failure. I am sure the drag racers can get away with higher amounts than those who land speed race.
Where I am going with this is simple: Upon closer examination of my silver book, page 46 states that "To make sure it stays together during long blasts, we used carburised connecting rods AND FORGED PISTONS."
Page 52 them mentions: "...we could probably bump it up up to 210 HP"
A fellow A1 guy who will remain nameless until he wants to chime in pointed that out to me and has mentioned that going with a 60 shot for a mile was quite ok, even with the stock fuel system being a bit maxed out.
I would like to know what those who are in this realm or understand it pretty well think about the idea of going up to a 60 shot (Staying dry) on:
Stock pistons, aftermarket valve springs, mapped rich and -3 degrees timing and colder plugs.
........
............
.......................
You have most people that freak out about the idea....yet others have done it.
For those who think the pistons will be ok but are sweating the fuel system.....what should you mod and what stock stuff can stay for a 60 shot for a mile? Switch the injectors, pump or both? I presume altering either will necessitate a remap, which I'd rather not do just yet.
Maybe there are some middle of the road guys that say I should jump up to a 50 and see how it goes?
No need to check a/f ratio or ex gas temp just yet w/the 40....runs fine in 9/10, Maxton, Bonneville or the highway! But as I go up maybe I should with stock components?
Thoughts?
A.
  
|
zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
|
posted March 08, 2007 09:14 PM
ka-BOOM------------hope not when your on it.-hey shiphteey my a1 has 37000 miles now. you think it's gonna pop.i just replaced the waterpump.this bike runs fantastic.
it's never snorted or smoked anything but other bikes.lots of them.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 08, 2007 09:29 PM
What is your rationale behind "ka-BOOM"?
Fuel starvation? Too much nitrous even with the correct fuel for the piston to take for that long? Head gasket pops....head warps due to the heat?
What is your rationale and why!
A.
|
zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
|
posted March 08, 2007 11:04 PM
overall stress.you take too much dope for too long and you'll get weak and pop also.
just like a meth head .the nos will slowly weaken the engine. till it dies.
nobody can give you the right answer.it's just a matter of time till it does blow.hopefully it does not go down on the big end.thats awful fast up where your playing young man.
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted March 09, 2007 06:20 AM
 Edited By: TRNorBRN6001 on 9 Mar 2007 06:22
Always risk with the juice even a 40 shot. I have seen people running a 60 dry, but I would be scared to try it. Some good areas to invest for the future if you plan to go to a bigger shot: Valve springs, Mad Mike's SS valves, Muzzy fuel pump (almost drops right In), and progressive box (for a little less engine stress). Just my two cents. I would keep it at 40 and enjoy, since it sounds like your on a budget. Save some money and pick up Dougs motor for your LSR stuff. It's no fun when your bike is down and it takes lots of time to get parts.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 09, 2007 07:54 AM
I hear what you guys are saying....I just feel like since I have such an overly conservative set-up with
colder plugs
-3 degrees up top
super rich mapping
premium fuel
that ... well....the 40 gets downright boring and I feel like I want to try the 60 but safely. Would the stock A1 injectors no longer be a bottleneck because of the muzzy fuel pump? How much could stock injectors push with a muzzy fuel pump HP-wise?
What about going with race fuel and another degree taken out....then the 60 shot would hit like a 55 maybe?
I would like to step up to a 60 shot since I have the jets (never installed them) and run it for a mile....already have the stiffer v-springs and upgraded clutch of course.
A.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted March 09, 2007 08:58 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 9 Mar 2007 08:59
It's only a matter of time. The head gaskets will turn your 4 into a twin, the pistons will melt. The finish line may come up first, maybe not. Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 09, 2007 03:28 PM
FWIW...my builder just opened up my motor today and said the pistons and valve springs look great....plugs he said look fantastic (inline with the tan color I saw @ Bonneville during teardown)
Still itching for it.....maybe a 50 shot???
|
zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
|
posted March 09, 2007 03:58 PM
oh well,we tried.
|
Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
|
posted March 09, 2007 04:22 PM
quote:
It's only a matter of time. The head gaskets will turn your 4 into a twin, the pistons will melt. The finish line may come up first, maybe not. Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?
Not today Clint 
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted March 10, 2007 06:57 AM
I thought factory pistons were forged ?
I dont see a problem shooting 60 hp or or even more if you have enough fuel.
people shoot 100 hp wet so whats the difference. There are stg. 1 turbo kits bolted to these bikes making 230-240 hp on stock motors. I think it all comes down to correct air fuel ratios.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 10, 2007 09:57 AM
Yeah but are they doing it for a mile? Approx 20 seconds on spray...thats a while!
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted March 10, 2007 03:39 PM
CAST!
100HP shot on forged, but a lot of other factors.
Turbos are much smoother and easier on the motor.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 10, 2007 04:21 PM
Again page 46 in the silver book states that the pistons are forged. Maybe other models are cast, but its safe to say that at least the 2000 model has forged pistons from the factory, per the silver book.
A.
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 10, 2007 04:51 PM
Edited By: shane661 on 10 Mar 2007 16:58
Maybe someone can add something to this: Aren't the big issues cylinder temp AND pressures, and the speed at which they rise? How does an N20 bike compare to a turbo, at equal hp levels?
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted March 10, 2007 09:13 PM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 10 Mar 2007 21:21
My builder says there forged.
I see no difference in NOS ,Turbo or supercharger. Combustion engine is just an air pump, add more oxygen and fuel and it pumps more air. Compression goes up whether its nos or turbo. Just two different ways of getting there.
I am no expert by any means but it seems pretty simple. could be wrong, I dunno.
And actually nos offers a cooler intake charge compared to a turbo which would probably lead to cooler cylinder temps.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted March 10, 2007 11:36 PM
It's about air fuel ratio. You're dumping in a load of oxygen but no more fuel. That 's why they call them wet kits! Never mind. Hey, give it a shot. You might make history. What do I know anyway. I agree with zrex pilot. He's no expert by any means.
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted March 11, 2007 05:26 AM
quote:
It's about air fuel ratio. You're dumping in a load of oxygen but no more fuel. That 's why they call them wet kits! Never mind. Hey, give it a shot. You might make history. What do I know anyway. I agree with zrex pilot. He's no expert by any means.
I thought I said that already " Its about air fuel ratios"
Shiptey said he would upgrade his fuel supply, so he could dump 100 hp dry as long as he adds the fuel, if air fuel is good I dont see the problem.
I never heard of a piston melting because of a rich condition, its always because of a lean one, not enough fuel. Now he could blow a head gasket , seen this happen with large shots of dope or large amounts of boost. Usually because of it trying to lift the head off the motor, stronger cylinder studs help here.
By the way Doug, wet kits are a thing of the past. too easy to run dry and upgrade your fuel supply, endless tuning via the PC.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 11, 2007 07:11 AM
Yeah....I think there is some miscommunication here.
My point is if I upgrade the fuel system accordingly since A1s have smaller injectors (either the pump, injectors, or both), considering I'm running a SUPER RICH map already with -3 degrees of timing taken out (which is excessive for a 40 shot).
Is it JUST an issue of A/F? If I have stronger v-spring....and I continue with my mantra of mapping it super rich and with 3...hell maybe I'll go 4 degrees of timing taken out....what would then be the problem with going 60 for a mile?
Doesn't running it really rich and retarded with colder plugs on good fuel keep everything safe? I don't mind if my 60 shot dry is a true 55 or something....just wanted to know "why" it woudln't be able to handle it even if I went conservative w/my mapping....
Rings......compression....?
A.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted March 11, 2007 08:43 AM
Well, yes there is a miscommunication.
quote:
Shiptey said he would upgrade his fuel supply, so he could dump 100 hp dry as long as he adds the fuel, if air fuel is good I dont see the problem.
If "he adds the fuel" it's no longer "dry" is it? You can add 200hp "if you upgrade the fuel".
By the way,..... Wet kits a thing of the past? Are you nuts? You even contradict yourself , You're talking about going "super rich". That means adding fuel. It doesn't matter HOW you do that, you can do it with a select map, a higher pressure fuel circuit, a separate nozzle or nozzles, whatever-add more fuel and it's "wet".
The head gasket failures come from the detonation which comes from the inevitable lean condition without the extra fuel.
The reason you need the stronger (exhaust) valve springs is to keep the valves from blowing open when you encounter the inevitable backfire in the exhaust when button shifting on the juice. If that doesn't happen they are not really a big deal.
Hey I'm just trying to save you some grief. You think I make this stuff up?
Doug
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted March 11, 2007 09:28 AM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 11 Mar 2007 10:42
If you look at it that way then there is no such thing as a dry kit, cause even 20 shot dry , fuel needs to be added whether the bike senses it and does it automatically or you do it in the map.The term wet and dry are just two different methods of delivering the extra fuel.
With fuel injection dry shot is the way to go delivering the fuel via the PC.
ship you just need to do a little research, I believe there is way to bump fuel pressure real easy, and would probably be enough for 60 shot of dope. But course you have to put it on a sniffer o check air fuel ratio's. I dont see why it wouldnt hanlde it if air fuel ratio is correct.
heres a good read.
http://psychobike.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=bd731daef07e4167f0239e7cd8b365b3;act=ST;f=5;t=13252
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted March 11, 2007 11:39 AM
Common miscopnception here, which I will attempt to debunk yet AGAIN. The update rate on the inlet air sensor on our bikes is not fast enough, nor has enough latitude, to appreciably enrich the mixture in the few seconds that it would need to, in order to compensate for the temp drop in the airbox caused by the incoming N2O before damage is done if the O2 level is excessive and the A/FR is too lean.
A dry kit adds only N2O, a wet kit includes some way to add additional fuel.
As far as the read, did you miss the parts about the fuel system? The big pump, the regulator, the throttle switch?
You can't change chemistry and physics, no matter how hard you believe.
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 11, 2007 12:01 PM
Regarding the inlet air sensor...and, specifically, the Muzzy Dry Kit...with it spraying straight to the stacks....
When you are spraying on a LSR run, with a big bottle, that could be 10 seconds or more, right? Isn't that enough time for the inlet sensor to start to enrichen the mixture? Even though I know you need to add more fuel to compensate for the initial hit, doesn't the sensor start to make changes within a few seconds?
|
kllrvet
Expert Class
Posts: 148
|
posted March 11, 2007 12:13 PM
if you need the fuel right away, MPS makes an instant rich box. When activated, the injectors go static and stay open. With a bit of calculating, and some dyno time, the NOS could be jetted to the injectors.
____________
ZX14 cam chain tensioner making noise? I have the set it and forget it fix. PM me if I can help.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted March 11, 2007 12:17 PM
Yes, it does. But piston damage also happens in seconds (or less). Also, keep in mind where the sensor is and where the N2O is directed. I gotta tell you, at Bonneville not many people have had successful use of dry only over the long haul. You know how long you have to be on the bottle. 10 seconds? More like 20 or more if you have the room. I can't tell you how many burned pistons I have seen out there even with wet kits. You absolutely will junk some parts finding the fastest combination.
Hey, I'm not saying don't do this stuff, I'm just trying to get you guys to do it right the first time. It's WAY cheaper that way.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC