tcchin
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posted February 09, 2007 02:19 PM
Cam Position, Crank Position and Ignition Timing
Does anyone know the effect of the cam position sensor and the crank position sensor on ignition timing? Does the cam position sensor determine static advance, or is that solely the function of the crank position sensor? What is the angular tolerance on the cam position sensor before its signal starts to affect ignition timing events?
I am asking this in the context of a set of cams I just installed for a friend that had the indexing notch in the exhaust cam machined adjacent to the dowel pin instead of displaced ~45* CW from the pin. In order to make the bike start, I machined the indexing tab off of the cam position rotor and rotated it back to the original position.
Is it possible that these are these not ZX-12 cams?
  
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dougmeyer
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posted February 09, 2007 02:59 PM
The CPS has no effect on specific ignition timing. It merely tells the ECU (A-1's only I think) where number one cylinder is. I does need to be pretty much in the correct location. I don't know how bad it would need to be to confuse the ECU, but I'm pretty sure he exceeded it.
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tcchin
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posted February 09, 2007 03:25 PM
I understand that the CPS only specifies the phase of the cams relative to the crank, but I was really surprised that it prevented the bike from firing. That being said, I know that Honda includes a slotted CPS rotor with their HRC power-up kits, along with instructions that the CPS rotor must be adjusted to compensate for cam timing or gasket surface machining. The Honda kit rotors have a timing mark that needs to be made parallel to the gasket surface at #1 TDC.
Any idea why the indexing notch would be machined in the wrong location? Are there other brand-K models that use a similar cylinder head configuration, e.g., the Z1000, that might require a different CPS orientation?
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dougmeyer
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posted February 09, 2007 03:50 PM
There are no other cams that will fit the engine. Are they OEM cams or aftermarket?
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tcchin
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posted February 09, 2007 04:13 PM
 Edited By: tcchin on 9 Feb 2007 16:15
They are Web cams that are hard-welded and reground OEM cams. There is no evidence that the index notch has been relocated (stock casting texture and parting lines are still evident).
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osti33
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posted February 09, 2007 04:24 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 9 Feb 2007 16:26
What year is the bike and what year are the cams? 02-newer cams have a different placement of the cam index notch than the 00-01 cams. If you are using newer cams in an older bike or older cams in a newer bike that could be your problem. You need 00-01 cams in an 00-01 bike or 02-newer cams in an 02-newer bike. Otherwise you will have to machine the cam trigger and re-index it.
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tcchin
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posted February 09, 2007 05:17 PM
According to the Kawasaki parts fiche, 49118-1205, CAMSHAFT-COMP,EXHAUST fits all model years from 2001 to 2005. 49118-1186 fits only 2000's (A1's).
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osti33
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posted February 09, 2007 06:36 PM
Yep, your right. 01-05 are the same 00 are different.
You didn't say what year your bike or the cams were. You still could have the wrong cam if Webb sent you an 00 or an 01-05 depending on what year the bike is.
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ridgeracer
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posted February 09, 2007 07:53 PM
Edited By: ridgeracer on 9 Feb 2007 19:56
What I saw in the ECU (B2) software backs up what Doug says. The ignition and injector pulses are all triggered off the ignition rotor. The camshaft pulse just identifies cylinder 1.
I don't remember off the top of my head what the exact relation of cam pulse to rotor pulse is allowable but the ignition rotor has eight tabs which means they are 45 degrees (360 / 8) apart.
If the cam dowel was ~45 off that would really screw up the ECU essentially putting it one tab off meaning it would fire at BDC instead of TDC.
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tcchin
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posted February 09, 2007 09:31 PM
Actually, it was 45 cam degrees, or 90 crank degrees, or two ignition rotor tabs, making for some exciting pyro displays.
This is for a friend's bike, which is an '01, but he bought the parts himself so I have no idea what model the cams are for. If the CPS is indexed within a few degrees of where it should be, and the motor seems to be running well, would there be other issues with running the '00 cams in an '01 motor? webcamshafts.com lists their ZX-12 grinds as being applicable to 2000-2003 model years.
Unfortunately, this is the first and only ZX-12 I've ever worked on, so my familiarity with it is extremely limited. I certainly didn't expect changes in hard parts to be introduced in the second model year!
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entropy
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posted February 10, 2007 04:16 AM
Tim,
i just checked. Yep the notch on 2000 is offset 45 degrees (eyeball) from the 2002 I have. There is a shop in PA which races oval cars and sells conversion triggers.
Buddy made a lil jig and "indexed" his trigger successfully like you did.
Me, I'm a clutz and paid $50 for the "billet" conversion trigger.
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buddy
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posted February 10, 2007 05:00 AM
Yea, I took a piece of solder about 6-8" long and wrapped in around the trigger on the Rotor and then pointed the free end at something solid on the stock cam. Then I moved the Rotor to the aftermarket cam and set it to the same point. I forgot now what I pointed it at but it's easy to find something. I think instead of just pointing the free end, I wrapped it around the bottom of the nearest cam lobe. When I finished tightening the Rotor, I moved the jig back to the stock cam and rotor to make sure it hadn't been bent out of shape. Worked very good.
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tcchin
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posted February 10, 2007 09:35 AM
So the 2000 cams will work in a 2001 motor? A great success! (Sorry, Borat fan here.) With that 'monocoque' frame design and all, I wasn't looking forward to dropping the motor and replacing the cams. For some reason, it takes about 5x longer to R&R the motor in this bike than it does in my brand-S race bikes.
I'll let Eddie know about the conversion triggers. That will make him happy.
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entropy
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posted February 10, 2007 10:56 PM
Tim,
yes indeed the 2000 cam will work in a 2001 motor/harness; give this guy a call if you want the appropriate trigger:
Bryan @ Eliminator Race Cars
760 Pine Run Road,
Apollo, PA 15613
724 727 9988
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tcchin
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posted February 11, 2007 03:13 AM
Thanks for all the help!
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entropy
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posted February 11, 2007 04:15 AM
Edited By: entropy on 11 Feb 2007 04:20
hey Tim,
did you get the pm & email???
BTW: what bike do you race and where???
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tcchin
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posted February 12, 2007 01:35 AM
Yes I did, and I replied to your email address. It appeared to be a work account, so you may not have had a chance to retrieve it yet.
I've been a mechanic in AMA Pro Superbike since 1999 and a team owner/crew chief since 2003. We race GSX-R1000's in Superbike and Superstock and an R6 in Formula Xtreme.
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entropy
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posted February 12, 2007 05:02 AM
quote:
Yes I did, and I replied to your email address. It appeared to be a work account, so you may not have had a chance to retrieve it yet.
I've been a mechanic in AMA Pro Superbike since 1999 and a team owner/crew chief since 2003. We race GSX-R1000's in Superbike and Superstock and an R6 in Formula Xtreme.
Man o' man!!! you are into it?? 
what is the name of yr team and primary riders so we can cheer you on!!
(we won't even hold the "S" word against you  )
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