rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted January 16, 2007 07:56 PM
I think it's funny when someone goes to Maxton or Bonneville a couple times, all the sudden they are "an expert" and have so many opinions on what is impossible and what isnt.
One thing I've learned is you can leave your formulas, gearing and horsepower calculators at home.
I've personally taken 195rwhp (and less) to 202-204mph repeatedly, naturally aspirated. On other occasions with the exact same setup, I couldn't break 200mph. Conditions are never ideal, nor identical.
Its one thing to offer advice or share personal experience, but never discount the accomplishments of others.
  
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted January 16, 2007 08:23 PM
quote:
Its one thing to offer advice or share personal experience, but never discount the accomplishments of others.
Couldn't have said it better myself Bergie. 
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted January 17, 2007 12:19 AM
Well said Bergie......
Thanxxx fer having my back Slider now we prolly get deleted together...LOL
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted January 17, 2007 07:31 AM
Bergie, I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have some experience in the matter don't I? That makes me at least qualified to speak on an issue and ask detailed questions.
BTW congrats on your 202-204 mph runs, even if it was on a motor that was larger than what the class allowed. Looks like we run about the same MPH small bore spray or big bore/stroke n/a. Hope to finally get a chance to meet ya @ Maxton!
A.
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Outsiderzx12r
Zone Head
Street Racer
Posts: 841
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posted January 17, 2007 03:45 PM
quote:
Well said Bergie......
Thanxxx fer having my back Slider now we prolly get deleted together...LOL
No problem Richard. Oh well, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened here.
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted January 18, 2007 12:58 PM
Bergie.... you're not trying to pass that 1361 stroker 12R off as a 195rwhp bike are you? We all know you ran an ILLEGAL motor in the 1350cc class at Maxton and claimed a record. Come on Bergie... you're not seriously trying to defend Doug's integrity when you don't have any of your own.
202mph on a 1361cc stroker 12r? I'm not sure why YOU'RE qualified to question Shiphteey's right to ask questions.... Last time I checked, Shiphteey is a CURRENT record holder at Bonn. WITH A LEGAL BIKE and has gone equal (if not faster) at Maxton than YOU. Shiphteey went 208mph on GPS at Bonn. how fast have you gone again? Guys like Shiphteey are the future of this sport....
You've had this fucking attitude for years now with anyone and everyone who doesn't measure up to your standards. If Shiphteey wants to ask questions and clear up some issues about Doug's 199mph run, he should be allowed to without a prick like you telling him he's not worthy.
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted January 18, 2007 04:18 PM
 Edited By: THE ICE MAN on 18 Jan 2007 16:25
Bergie you came on a post about the 9/10's racing, like you were someone special,
talking crap and down to the 9/10th's guy's awhile back saying we need to prove ourselves like you do at a sanctioned event.
Your doing it again,Dont be so arrogant, chill out.
____________
ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 18, 2007 08:26 PM
I got my hookup back.
This is all getting a little of hand. I'm willing to work on the tech stuff but the rest is all bullshit.
I'm trying to help you guys avoid some of the missteps I've taken in my 30 years of top speed competition. You can take it or leave it but if my 16 Nat'l records and 2-club membership (without ever touching juice or fuel) mean anything, justr try and think through what I'm telling you. I've got no axe to grind, nothing to prove.
SO, anybody figure that speed at 11,600 yet?
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted January 18, 2007 09:13 PM
Doug: I have some stabilty issues but I have a line on a stock wheel/tire I could borrow and do a run on gps and stay on the limiter for the name of science.....of course every rev limiter varies slightly.....but I'll just post mine....hell its always fun isn't it?!?!?
Bergie....what was your displacement? I'm just curious....I know it was stroked (you know we were sponsored by the same people)...just wondering what the total displacement was when you ran 202.2? Was the gas tank stock when you ran APS?
A.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted January 18, 2007 09:18 PM
BTW if ANYONE wants to question MY displacement I still have OFFICIAL markings by the FIM and AMA guys @ Bonneville on my valve cover gasket and head gasket.....they kept measuring displacement (1196....1198 cc......yada yada)
A.
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted January 19, 2007 07:07 AM
Edited By: THE ICE MAN on 19 Jan 2007 07:08
Doug the top speed on the zx12 on gps were 196-197 mph toped out on GPS consistantly on a weekly basis were we race at.
The 197 were more likely with tail winds.
The zx12 that had a muzzy kit required a rear sprocket change of (-1) in the rear to get past the 196-197 mph speed when the sprocket was changed it then pulled 199 mph in our
9/10'ths runs.
All of you guys going off the gear calculators, dont count on them being 100 % correct
in the real world.
try 98% on your calculators and you right on target.
____________
ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted January 19, 2007 08:23 AM
Edited By: GUNNER on 19 Jan 2007 08:30
quote:
Doug is a nice/good guy and is a founding friend of Bikeland.org, he goes out of his way to help the Members here.
zx12richard if you have a question for Dougmeyer - you can post a question to Dougmeyer, you don't have to do it with Drama, cursewords and links.
Doug is a full grown man PK  He don't need you to be his momma. Don't you need to paint your finger nails or something? Hey I know how about some nice Ginger Bread Cookies..
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princesskiwi
Administrator
MISTRESS of SMACK
Posts: 7688
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posted January 19, 2007 01:19 PM
Edited By: princesskiwi on 19 Jan 2007 13:25
Gunner - do you need some extra attention?
I'll be in the SMACKHOUSE if you care to join me.
Hmmm....maybe I will paint my nails - black while I am waiting.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 19, 2007 07:04 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 19 Jan 2007 19:06
But I WANT PK to be my mamma....
Ice man -How do you know you were at "Top Speed"?
Stop with the GPS stuff. It's good for bar talk and not much else.
I work with extremely sophisticated GPS 's everyday in the aircraft. They are very accurate as far as position, but not accurate enough to measure small speed increments quickly. Remember speed is distance change over time. When traveling 200 mph you are covering 293 feet per second, 198 mph is 290 feet per second. If you are plotting distance to plus or minus 50 feet (is yours more accurate than that?), How can you have a speed accurate enough to say "I win".
Not close enough for records which are figured to .001 mph. If it's not clocks it doesn't count (to me).
D.
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted January 19, 2007 07:56 PM
a football field every second!--------WOW---funny i never think about goal post when i'm up at that kind of speed.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 19, 2007 10:00 PM
Yeah, well think about this- if you head for the ditch, you're pretty much dead before you know you're gonna die.
D.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted January 20, 2007 05:20 AM
quote:
I got my hookup back.
This is all getting a little of hand. I'm willing to work on the tech stuff but the rest is all bullshit.
SO, anybody figure that speed at 11,600 yet?
Yeah Doug.....201.32 M.P.H.
(That is my oringinal Calculation with a Brand new STOCK O.E. Dunlap 200/50 ZR17. The Cir. on it was 77.25 in.)
My "Real World" Test back in Spring 01' (Doug, You remember...) revaled this:
I went 195.8 @ 11,300 rpm. My actual speed was measured with Cycle Worlds Own radar gun. I had Paul Dean come out and do the shooting for me. He was looking for the "200 m.p.h. Story" We also had a GPS with us and it was showing with in .1 mph of the Gun.
The Set up I was using: Doug's own Pipe (Muzzy), Ignition Rotor and Map in my PCIII. These are the same components that were on the 199 m.p.h. bike Doug Ran at Maxton. Gearing was STOCK (18/46), Corbin Seat, Mirrors Removed and Brand new O.E. Dunlaps$$$$
Now on that run (I only was able to do 3), My Tach was showing @ 11,900 "ish" (My stock tach is off by 6-700 r.p.m.), which means there was @ 250-300 r.p.m.'s left in it. Was I out of power? I don't know for sure, the combo gave 170 on the local dyno. If you add 8% as KHI says for Ram Air, I had 183.6 Corrected h.p. and 165.24 uncorrected.
I called Doug and Gave him the weather conditons and actual elevation that a.m. and his slide rule said @ 2,300 ft. Air. So-So........
My biggest battle was getting out of the air!!! I'm 6'0" and 205 + Gear. My stature would not allow me to get my shoulders and elbows out of the wind. My back was a flat as I could get it and I raised it up untill I could "just" feel the air smooth out over it. That in itself was worth 200 rpm.
I still believe that with better air, a PROPERLY sealed ram air system and a slightly smaller rider, My 12 could get awfully close to what Doug did at Maxton.
Hey Doug! What's up for you at Barret-Jackson Tonight?!?
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted January 20, 2007 05:33 AM
Doug, Can I give you a call?
THX!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted January 20, 2007 05:47 AM
How do I know the bike was at top speed ???
Maybe because it was bouncing off the rev limiter ??
and yes when it hits the limiter it slows down and then picks up speed again, the GPS
has enough time to get the speed within 1 mph.
I know how a GPS works, I also know stock zx12's gearing is not good for 199 MPH in the real world at speed.
In the article it said you changed the rear sprocket -1 in the back.
We have a few guys with rader guns that shoot us as we go thru the finish line
and the GPS are within 1 mph of the gun, and yes that proves either one or the other is off.
Anyone who uses a GPS has got a very very good indication off their top speed to within
1 mph because most bike's are not really pulling much speed at 9/10's or a mile and the GPS has its refresh rate every 1 second so its within 1 mph.
While I was at Maxton we stuck our GPS on the bike against the timming clocks and it also was within 1 mph, I wanted to do this to see if the clocks were going to be happy.
These are my findings I though I would share.
My point is in the real world at 190 MPH + speeds they DO NOT GO OVER 196-197 MPH
due to tire slippage !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!so if someone were looking to go a certain speed to go with 98% of the gear calc's
Gear calculators on paper and doing something in the real world are 2 different things.
____________
ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted January 20, 2007 06:06 AM
quote:
Ice man -How do you know you were at "Top Speed"?
If you are plotting distance to plus or minus 50 feet (is yours more accurate than that?),
D.
Actually my GPS says accuracy 18 feet HAHAHA
____________
ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 20, 2007 03:24 PM
I think we agree. IF you are on the limiter you may or may not be at top speed. IF you are on the limiter DUE TO WHEELSPIN, then you are not at the top speed of the bike, but at the top speed ON THAT RUN. If you are on the limiter due to gearing with NO wheelspin, then you are at top speed for that bike with that set up. If you are NOT at the limiter, and have little or no wheelspin, then you need more distance to FIND top speed. I believe I had more distance than is customary at Maxton. I also had the ability to start around the corner and hit 2nd as soon as I was upright enough. We used clocks set as far down as possible.
The onset of tire slip is determined by two things traction and aero drag. Both can be changed by an individual tuner and rider.
My main point is that what I did on that day with that distance gave the results we cite.
The fact that you cannot do the same thing under different circumstances does not negate our results.
Regarding the GPS, update rate is a factor as well as position accuracy. You do have a good gps. probably accurate to within 1 mph. The IFR certified GPS's in our aircraft are more accurate than that but are still not considered accurate enough for precision Instrument approaches, without verification from stationary ground stations.
D.
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted January 20, 2007 04:29 PM
So Doug, why don't you enlighten all of us how you were able to get 199+mph worth of gearing from the stock 18/46 set-up with the OE Dunlop?
I'd like to know how a 7-time Maxton record holder like THE ICE MAN is hitting the rev limiter at 196mph but you seem to be able to coax 199+mph with the same gearing/tire. Maybe we can ALL learn something from your experience in the land speed racing world? Are you setting up the suspension a certain way to get better traction? Perhaps a certain tire pressure?
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted January 20, 2007 04:36 PM
BTW, 199mph is well within the realm of belief on a piped 12r on a good day with 1.16mi of room on a 2nd gear roll.
I did a VERY VERY similar run myself during identical conditions on my piped 12R (175rwhp) and achieved 195mph on GPS.... I'm 230lb's 6'2". Only difference was that I was using 18/44 gearing (I was also doing the same run with nitrous.... 203mph on GPS)
I had a friend jump on my bike 10 min earlier and at 150lb's.... he went 199mph on GPS. 18/44 gearing, Akrapovic race exhaust, pc3, mirrors removed.... that's it. So I for one am NOT doubting that 199mph with just a pipe is possible, because we did it down here on an identical run.
It's just the gearing thing that's got everyone scratching their heads.
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 20, 2007 05:09 PM
quote:
So Doug, why don't you enlighten all of us how you were able to get 199+mph worth of gearing from the stock 18/46 set-up with the OE Dunlop?
I'd like to know how a 7-time Maxton record holder like THE ICE MAN is hitting the rev limiter at 196mph but you seem to be able to coax 199+mph with the same gearing/tire. Maybe we can ALL learn something from your experience in the land speed racing world? Are you setting up the suspension a certain way to get better traction? Perhaps a certain tire pressure?
First off, I don't think you can really compare Sal to DM. I mean, Sal is a street racer, and DM has been doing LSR for decades. Very different venues, with different measures of performance. Secondly, he has stated that the tire was changed.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted January 20, 2007 05:45 PM
Im guessing with the removal of the air filters worth 4 horsepower and mirrors.. you should get 199 mph in 1.16 miles. I thought 18/46 gearing mathematically was 201.875 at least thats what sport rider magazine said in Big Dogs..
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