zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
|
posted January 12, 2007 11:21 AM
 Edited By: zx12richard on 12 Jan 2007 11:26
Ship calling Doug Meyer out?????
Ship don't buy the 199 at Maxton.. Seems to be calling Bullshit... Heres his posts..
http://www.zx-12r.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47378&start=20
  
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted January 12, 2007 11:24 AM
http://www.zx-12r.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47378&start=20
he might be a few years late... maybe he was smoking some CRACK...
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
|
posted January 12, 2007 11:27 AM
Thanxxx for fixing my link Mike I forgot over here I have to use the URL...
|
12r1
Expert Class
Posts: 390
|
posted January 12, 2007 02:29 PM
My comment over there about modified vs stock bike performance got em all wound up,lol
jeff, JL12 over there..
|
Outsiderzx12r
Zone Head
Street Racer
Posts: 841
|
posted January 12, 2007 02:53 PM
quote:
My comment over there about modified vs stock bike performance got em all wound up,lol
jeff, JL12 over there..
Sounds like a similar situation I can relate to.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 03:00 PM
If you read the post carefully I'm NOT calling anyone out. I just have trouble swallowing 199.1 with a:
stock tire
stock limiter
stock sprockets
Maybe he can shed some light on it. Called muzzy and got somewhat of a tight lip short and sweet: Yep, it was stock (except for the pipe/mirrors).
A.
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted January 12, 2007 03:05 PM
What's funny is that you have no problem claiming, repeatedly, 196 mph for a STOCK A model (on 12.org)...but can't swallow 199 with a prepped bike.
I guess the 196 only counts when you are arguing with the B model guys...lol
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 04:54 PM
"PREPPED" being a full muzzy pipe and no mirrors, THATS IT.
THAT in and of itself you are saying is good for going thru a limiter?
A.
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted January 12, 2007 04:57 PM
Are you a moron? When you prep even a stock bike for racing, there is a lot more to it than that. Chain, pressures, oil, tune-up, etc...etc...etc. And where the fuck are you getting your "196 at limiter" number?
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted January 12, 2007 05:02 PM
2000 A1's DO NOT have a limiter!!
(Clue)
Now, I will say that the 2000 exhaust system restricted flow after 10,300 r.p.m. 
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 05:30 PM
HELLO!!! I think I figured out that A1s don't have a limiter.....that was the reason I didn't "settle" for a B(oring) model.
Shane, my numbers are from the real world, not the gearing chart BS you are spewing. Thats all theoretical, it all goes out the window when you DO THIS STUFF buddy.
Case in point: I ran the zx14 a previous time (no helmet cam). I KNEW he had his limiter still in. Guess what I did? Ran 17/46 gearing: 185.3 mph on a stock tire....but I had a taller tire (188ish given the wear) to ensure I would have better acceleration than stock AND be able to hold him off at the end.
WORKED OUT JUST LIKE THAT! I WOULD WALK AWAY, HIT THE LIMITER....ROLL OFF A HAIR, THERE HE WAS.....I COULD "PACE" HIM WHILE HE RODE THE LIMITER (AHEM....186 MPH) AND STILL COULD GO BACK TO HITTING THE LIMITER AND PULL AWAY VEEERRRRY SLOWLY!!!!
I did it to the 2 B models that were there and the 14 since they were all restricted.
Saw it again when I ran them last time out. I could wring out 5th due to 18/44 taller tire(about 188ish) and never use 6th because they were ALL RESTRICTED.
But what do I know about these things? Its not like I go out and do this stuff or anything, right? I'm full of crap Shane, right?
COME OUT WITH ME WITH YOUR 17/46 GEARING AND STOCK TIRE, STOCK REV LIMITER IN PLACE and HIT your fantasy 190 or whatever your chart shows.
But alas, every time I am interested in PROOF you wanna just dance around the topic. Whatever man. But please, w/all due respect, lay off the implication that I think Doug "cheated" or anything remotely resembling that. I already said it before, HIS accomplishment was ONE OF THE MAIN reasons I got a 12 and gave LSR a go.
I would like to know if anyone else on the planet has proof of an A1 with a stock tire, stock gearing and stock limiter going 199. I have yet to hear of another report.
A.
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted January 12, 2007 05:43 PM
Edited By: shane661 on 12 Jan 2007 17:45
quote:
HELLO!!! I think I figured out that A1s don't have a limiter.....that was the reason I didn't "settle" for a B(oring) model.
Shane, my numbers are from the real world, not the gearing chart BS you are spewing. Thats all theoretical, it all goes out the window when you DO THIS STUFF buddy.
Case in point: I ran the zx14 a previous time (no helmet cam). I KNEW he had his limiter still in. Guess what I did? Ran 17/46 gearing: 185.3 mph on a stock tire....but I had a taller tire (188ish given the wear) to ensure I would have better acceleration than stock AND be able to hold him off at the end.
WORKED OUT JUST LIKE THAT! I WOULD WALK AWAY, HIT THE LIMITER....ROLL OFF A HAIR, THERE HE WAS.....I COULD "PACE" HIM WHILE HE RODE THE LIMITER (AHEM....186 MPH) AND STILL COULD GO BACK TO HITTING THE LIMITER AND PULL AWAY VEEERRRRY SLOWLY!!!!
I did it to the 2 B models that were there and the 14 since they were all restricted.
Saw it again when I ran them last time out. I could wring out 5th due to 18/44 taller tire(about 188ish) and never use 6th because they were ALL RESTRICTED.
But what do I know about these things? Its not like I go out and do this stuff or anything, right? I'm full of crap Shane, right?
COME OUT WITH ME WITH YOUR 17/46 GEARING AND STOCK TIRE, STOCK REV LIMITER IN PLACE and HIT your fantasy 190 or whatever your chart shows.
But alas, every time I am interested in PROOF you wanna just dance around the topic. Whatever man. But please, w/all due respect, lay off the implication that I think Doug "cheated" or anything remotely resembling that. I already said it before, HIS accomplishment was ONE OF THE MAIN reasons I got a 12 and gave LSR a go.
I would like to know if anyone else on the planet has proof of an A1 with a stock tire, stock gearing and stock limiter going 199. I have yet to hear of another report.
A.
Lick my balls.
You are calling BS on him, big time.
I said the gearing chart is within a few mph. I ran 184.66 at Maxton. I had some left. This was on "calculated" 190 mph gearing. I think I could have hit 187...within 3 mph of the chart.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 12, 2007 05:52 PM
So, I'm confused.
What part of this doesn't make sense to you? Are you saying that the numbers won't work rpm wise? What limiter rpm are you using for your calculations?
Or, are you saying that a stock (prepped) bike doesn't have the power to do it.
We explored all this pretty extensively in 2000, and I re-ran it in my classified for my 12 (one of those bikes).
BTW , I appreciate the compliment.
Doug
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 07:13 PM
Shane: Never "CALLED BS" on him, don't put words in my mouth. If you want to sit there drinking beers and ducking every invitation I offer you these days to come play thats on YOU. I don't wanna hear what you "THINK" you could have hit. You went to Maxton and made one pass over 180, end of discussion. You speculating, adding a few mph here, projecting that based on RPMS there.....forget it man. Go thru there on the rev limiter...(maybe 17/48 gearing would be right up your alley who knows) and tell me what you trap at vs what your gearing chart tells you you will trap at, then lets resurrect the issue...mmmkay?
DM: The limiter I am bringing up is the stock OEM rev limiter as we know the 2000 was not restricted like the A2 and B models. The part I am not quite getting is how you were able to attain 199.1 mph when myself as well as others have sat on the rev limiter before and not seen it go past 196. I am not questioning whether the bike had the HP to do it. What I just don't get is how everyone else is seeing 196 and you are the only bike/rider combo I have heard of with a stock rev limiter that has gone over 196 with:
Stock tire
Stock sprocket
Stock rev limiter
Do you think you could go into detail on it at all? If there are certain things you can not talk about w/respect to Muzzy and breaking 196 on an essentially stock bike I understand. I think it would just help shed some light on the issue as many people commonly claim 196 is all you can go given the 3 things I mentioned above.
As an aside, my A1 rev limiter indicated 12.2k. I have heard others indicate 12.5. I suppose there is a possibility that not only is my tach off but ECU won't rev to the actual 11.5 or 11.6k rpms rev limiter but I somewhat doubt it.
If it was a 45 tooth, an extended rev limiter, maybe pumping up the stock 200 sized tire to something ridiculous to the point where the rolling diameter was puffed up like, say, a 180/55 tire which we know adds about 4 mph then it would make more sense to me.
Again, I'm not doubting your skill, tuck, shift points or the bike's HP, the way it was broken in, maybe thinner oil or different fuel. I am just stuck on the 199 you hit vs what myself and some others have seen to be the actual MPH achievable by an A1.
Sorry for the long email, hope it makes sense to ya.
Ali
|
THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
|
posted January 12, 2007 07:56 PM
He changed the rear sprocket.
____________
ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 08:37 PM
Makes sense if that is indeed the case. When I trapped 199.5 @ Maxton I remmeber being sooo close to the limiter w/stock tire and a 45 tooth rear! I'll wait for Doug to clairfy.
BTW, I personally called Muzzy and asked them repeatedly if they changed the sprocket since it can't go past 196 and they said: "NO".
A.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 12, 2007 09:47 PM
Wellll, we did change the sprockets- a few times. but we always ended up back at the stock size (46?, I think) I don't remember. Anyway I wish I was at home with all my data and calculations, but I'm in Scottsdale for the Barrett-Jackson (Wow it's been a year,,,,,) and I don't want to waste a bunch of time digging up all the ratios and tire sizes, etc. on the web.
So I can't PROVE what I'm going to tell you, but it's the truth. I think you must be making an error in your top speed calcs. Even before anyone had seen a 12 (including me) I had the trans ratios and the proposed rev limit (11,400) so I could do some planning for Bonneville. At that point it was clear to me that if the bike could pull to the limiter in 6th it would go 200. So there's no doubt in my mind about that. Remember this bike was DESIGNED to go 200 mph as it was sold to us. At Muzzys during the following year we confirmed that for all practical purposes the actual rev limit was 11.4 to 11.6 on an A1.
After the Maxton deal there was NO DOUBT in my mind that it would do just that given sea level 60 degree dry air. We did not have a stock tire on. Rob wanted to run Dunflops because he had a deal with them, I wanted to run Metzelers because I trusted them and had had Dunflops chunk at Bonneville in the past. I don't remember who won that one but it wasn't a stock tire. I rode the bike with and without the windsheild, with and without the seat, with and without the mirrors, one hand on the bars, both hands on the bars.Ultimately we ended up with the stock windsheild, no mirrors, the seat on and both hands on the bars. Why wasn't it faster with the seat off, allowing me to get lower, some of you ask? Because that puts MORE bad air on your back coming off the front and does not change frontal area. A proper stance keeps you off the seat anyway. The oil in the bike was 300V Motul, The forks were dropped an inch, the rear spring was wound down, lowering the back as well. We kept the tank full to help avoid wheelies in 1 and 2. We did remove the air filters for the runs with the pipe on, but they were in place for the 192 mph run with the stock exhaust. The bike had NOT been apart and as a matter of fact , FIM timer Jack Dolan sealed the engine after the runs and we made it available to any magazine who wanted to inspect it when we got back to the West coast. For more of the history read the classified for my A1 which was the backup bike of the two we got. (They were both red, which really had us fired up, being Green Guys and all). Later that year, after Bonneville I swapped bodywork with some misguided soul that wanted a red one.
I'll be happy to take your questions now....... :-)
Doug
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 10:22 PM
Hey Doug, I appreciate the detailed info! Yes the stock size is 46. The key may be in the tires. Its been several years so I presume you don't remember what SIZES they were right? THAT right there MAY be the key to clearing up the issue. A slightly taller tire should add a little more MPH.
The part about keeping the seat I understand for aero purposes.
If upon further review when you get a chance if you find that the tire was or wasn't a 200/50 I'd be very interested in hearing about it!
Although 5 or so years later some of us are still giving the A1 the whip the issue seems to have not quite died.
I will try and get a hold of a stock tired rear wheel and replicate the run. I have a race upper and no mirrors or signals. My issue isn't HP because I'll do the run with a 40 shot in the upper gears (its a sketchy proposition on the streets what can I say). I am only 200-250 feet above sea level and if a weekend morning looks promising this late winter or early spring I'll give it a go. Clutch slip should be virtually insignificant given the full muzzy clutch kit i have in the bike.
I'll give it a shot with 2 GPS units mounted and sitting on the limiter for a couple seconds (off spray of course). I noticed when I trap on the limiter for a couple seconds @ Maxton my GPS matches the trap mph but if I'm still pulling hard on the spray the GPS doesn't seem to "refresh" fast enough and is a couple mph lower than Maxton.
Thanks again for the input.....although I think you're wrong about the red ;-)
Shane: Lick MY Balls.
A.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 12, 2007 10:59 PM
You're welcome.
I'm pretty sure the tire would have been a 200. It could easily be the tire. A 1/2 inch in diameter (height) can make a about 2.5-3% change in circumference (depending on the actual size...... That's at least couple mph
D.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 12, 2007 11:08 PM
THANK YOU DOUG! As an aside I am sitll hoping to carry out my own little side test as well, why not!
I am glad you cleared this up, I think it helps the 12 community out as a whole, especially for those of us to actually participate in this sort of behavior!
A.
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 13, 2007 06:16 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 13 Jan 2007 06:30
quote:
2000 A1's DO NOT have a limiter!!
They do have an RPM limiter just like any bike.
Doug, do you remember on labusas back in 2000 when I posted the thread on the 199 mph run right after it hit the press and was asking how it could be possable because my bike hits the limiter at 194? (i think it was194)
I think at that time you atirbuted it to tire slippage. Its funny how 6-1/2 years later the same topic came up.
Anyway, what are you buying at the auction? Did you fly in in a LA IV ?  I'd love to build one but more realisticly it will be one of the RV's. Maybe an 8
Have fun.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted January 13, 2007 06:54 AM
cool info!
Ship shouldn't checked his rpm/speed calculator before doubting doug.
my calculator says with stock gearing and dunlop (76.5" circumference)
11601rpm = 199.5mph (no tire growth assumed)
11601rpm = 202.9mph (.2" radius tire growth assumed)
4-5 yrs ago when i was doing street top end tests, I tried to measure tire growth when the bike was on the dyno. Never got an accurate #, but it was at least 1/4".
Also, Shifty thinks that the "Muzzy clutch kit" will stop any clutch slippage. I'm not so sure of that, in fact I had to go to a lock up at the 1/4 mile because of persistent clutch slippage & mph loss.
I did have tire slippage at 200mph, but "cured" it by going to 18/44 gearing.
Just a few thoughts.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 13, 2007 07:57 AM
Thanks guys. One of the best things about this "place" is the institutional memory that develops.
On a "street" tire with 40 psi in it, growth is really minimal. I think certainly less than .25 on the radius. You're right, premature tagging of the rev limiter is usually tire slip which I always figure at about 2% on pavement, 3-5% on the salt. Contact patch is important. The less triangular the tire cross section, the better. One reason why I've always used the "sport touring" versions.
Ship- When you hit the aero "wall" (especially suddenly), throwing more power at it just spins the tire more, you go faster, but not the amount you expect. Controlling the tire slip coupled with the exponential drag rise are a couple reasons why this is so very tough.
Y2 - I fly Columbias, not Lancairs. Not same. Ours are not kits, but certified aircraft. (Still the fastest you can get, though)
Not buying anything this year- last year I went home with a 66 Corvette coupe project, which is currently in body-off condition. I'll have to finish that one before I get another!
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted January 13, 2007 09:11 AM
Interesting that you choose the sport touring tires. Does it not help to have a stickier compound, such as the Supercorsa's?
Also, the less triangular tire would seem to have more rolling resistance. It sounds as though tire slip at top speed is a bigger issue than rolling resistance.
I have heard people talk about going faster with the 180/55. Mathematically, this tire should be a hair less in circumference than the 200. Could the gain in speed be due to less tire slip, as the 180 spreads out a bit "flatter" than the 200, thus increasing traction at speed?
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 13, 2007 10:24 AM
Shane: Measure the diameters of both w/same psi on stock wheels and you'll see why. Considering your weight and HP I don't think you have too much to worry about w/tire slip compared to others.
Come over and you can see the profile of the 180/55 on BOTH my zx12 and my 5.5" rim gsxr 600. It doesn't flatten out as much as you think.
DM: I didn't realize that on the 199.1 run there was such a tailwind. Going back to the article they did mention a sprocket change too.
Entropy: I don't 100% trust gearing calculators because there are lots of things they can not take into account. What I do go by is Maxton trap speeds, GPS, Bonneville trap speeds, trapping in the 1/4 and 1/8 mile Warp's gearing calculator indicates my bike would top out @ 145 mph in 3rd. Back to back I hit the limiter going 141.xx and 142.xx @ MIR BONE STOCK. Shows how the gearing calculators can be off.
A.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC