entropy
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posted January 08, 2007 07:31 AM
chassis/wheel/sprocket alignment????
This weekend I did some wheel/sprocket measuring while waiting on a few parts to start putting my motor together.
Turns out that when my r wheel axle is "perfectly" aligned with my swingarm pivot points, the rear sprocket is out of alignment with the front sprocket by about .050"+. Predictably the chain does ride on the side of the rear sprocket although I have never had spkts chewed up.
This happens both with my Marvic r wheel and my OEM wheel.
I know that lots of folks just move the axle adjusters until the chain rides evenly on the r spkt. But when i moved the adjusters to get the chain riding the spkt evenly, the r heel was way out of alignment.
I could get different wheel spacers made up, but then fear that the r wheel won't track the front.
So, I thought, i'll bring my bike to GMD Computrack and get everything aligned right. Not gnna happen, because the only GMD sites "near" me are in Atlanta and CA.
hmmmmm.... maybe i have too much time on my hands???
Anyone know if there any other chassis alignment/checking options other than GMD???
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VincentHill
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posted January 08, 2007 11:18 AM
Now I know what it is about you that I like! The Attempt at Perfection with a Kawasaki!
Here is my question, are the Front and Rear WHeel in perfect alignment when they are aligned between the Swingarm Pivot? If the are then my question is, is the Countershaft Sprocket in or out by the 0.050?? That could easily be the differences in the machining of the cases!!
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entropy
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posted January 08, 2007 12:30 PM
quote:
Here is my question, are the Front and Rear WHeel in perfect alignment when they are aligned between the Swingarm Pivot?
Vincent:
THAT is exactly the question of the day...
How to accurately determine that?
(i'm gonna cry if you say "the string method" cause although i used "the string" for years, it got me cursing every time. 
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VincentHill
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posted January 08, 2007 02:40 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 8 Jan 2007 15:11
I also cannot use or trust the String measurement and had to make a "Tool" Which since I made it in 1982 has not failed me. (At least is good for going straight up to 204 MPH with no twich and no differences in left or right turns!
Go to Home Depot of Lowes and buy 3 strips of the 1/8 inch by 1 inch by 8 feet lonf strips of harden aluminum and 1 short strip of the 1/4 x 1 inch Aluminum. Cut 4 blocks of the 1/4 thick into 3.5 inch pieces and take 1 - 1/8 inch strip and cut 4 pieces that are 15 inches long (Because I never imagined the tires would get this wide I made mine 12 inches long) and 16 - pieces of the 1/8 make them 1 inch long.
You will also need the self drilling screws that are 1 inch long in total (a Box of them)
Take one of the 2 remaining strips and at the end (About 4 inches from the end) lay one of the 15 inch strips at 90 degrees across it and attach on 1 side. DO the same at the other end. then measure to that you have 3 feet open in the middle and put 1 strip on each side. Now it looks like an "E" with 4 bars. Carefully lay this part on the other piece so that the cross pieces are laying across the other bar in equal distance like the first long bar.
Make sure you have the Cross Strips about 50% across and mark where they are on the 2nd strip. (The reason for the 50% is you may be off a little in the 90 degree angle and this will allow it to be tight but work!) . Not that the 1st side is finished Cut off the tips of the screws and set that 1st side aside.
Now take 2 oc the 1 inch long 1/8 thich pieces and 1 of the 1/4 inch pieces and pit 1 short 1/8 inch piece on each side of the mark (Set back about 1/8 inch) and set the 1/4 inch block on top! Clamp in the middle and run 2 self drilling screws in both sides (Setepped at an angle and 1 above each other) so you do not weaken this strip and bolt together. Do this 3 more times and you are almost finished. You can either use a self drilling screw or a thumb screw (You aill need 4 of them) and drill and tap 4 holes in the middle of the aluminum blocks. If using the self drilling screws I use the ones that have a hex head and a screw slot. After mounting these screws, cut and round off the heads and you are done
Push this assembly together and it will look like a ladder lay it USD on the ground and roll you bike over it so that the front wheel is in the front section and the rear wheel is in the rear section. Make sure you have it wide enough to slip over the tire. Put you bike on the shop stand and push 3- 4x4 in fron and behind the front wheel and in front and between the rear and front wheel. Raise the assembly up and squeeze it on to the rear tire and push the other bars in until they are close to the same distance. and turn the clamping screws in place. Take a vernier caliper and measure the distance between the to parallel strips behind the rear tire and in front of the rear tire and make them exact. DO the same in the Middle and the front and clamp the set screws.
Gently lift the front of the assembly and lay it back on the blocks. turn the front wheel until you can measure the front of the rim and the rear of the rim "On One SIde to be exactly the same" Then measure the other side and if the measurements are the same the wheels are in perfect alignment. I think I can get within about 0.005 of perfect. I have used this tool on every bike I have ever had and all of my friends bikes and trues this more than any other tool I have (I hang it up carefully with bike hooks with equal distance from each other. There may be better ways but not for me! I do not understand the Lazers or the strings. I needed a mechanical device back in the 80's before Lazers were a dream!
http://www.zx-12r.org/PhotoPost/data//500/medium/IMG_1757.JPG
http://www.zx-12r.org/PhotoPost/data//500/medium/IMG_1750.JPG
http://www.zx-12r.org/PhotoPost/data//500/medium/IMG_1744.JPG
Look above and this is being used on Peggy's 250 Ninja I had to post the address this way so they could be viewed. If coming from another site they will be blocked. Hope this helps!
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osti33
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posted January 08, 2007 03:02 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 8 Jan 2007 15:03
Edit. Sorry wrong thread. 
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dougmeyer
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posted January 08, 2007 04:52 PM
Vince- Did you read this?
http://www.bikeland.org/bridges/the-home-depot-frame-check.html
Laser it!
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted January 08, 2007 05:15 PM
quote:
Vince- Did you read this?
http://www.bikeland.org/bridges/the-home-depot-frame-check.html
Laser it!
Doug
yes AND IT WAS A GREAT ARTICLE even for me! Some times People want a "Mechanical" device that is Old School (Read before Laser)
I may do that one day when my mind is right! 
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blitzkrieg
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posted January 08, 2007 10:21 PM
I started using my laser on my bikes a few years back, mainly to align the chain.
I figured I'd put it to use other than woodworking and hanging stuff on walls. 
It's about as accurate as you can get. I use a simple jig when the bikes are up on the Pitbulls. Works well.
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lubricity
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posted January 09, 2007 02:45 AM
I had the same situation on two of my 6 12's over the years. Heavy wear on the inside of the chain.
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a poor 12 owner
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entropy
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posted January 09, 2007 02:52 AM
Vincent & Doug
"holy embarasement of riches, Batman"!!!!
Thanks a million, guys!!!
Doug,
are you using a camera tripod to hold the laser???
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dougmeyer
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posted January 10, 2007 08:57 PM
Yes. The B&D laser I have has the same threaded hole in it as a camera. Works perfectly.
Lubricity, nice to hear from you!
Doug
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flite leader
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posted January 11, 2007 04:24 PM
stock brand new
rear sprocket.....front sprocket
rear wheel front wheel aligment is suspect
regardless brand of bike
GMD Computrak is a good bet
as long as the varibles are kept to a minimum
steeering stem beaerings
swing arm bearings
etc
just to name a few
on a bike that has been wrecked or Raced extensively
or just HAMMERED unmercifully
all margins open up
new
slack
tweaked
to plain Knackered !!!!!!!!!!
one culprit that always sneaks into the equation is
TORQUE
which is multiplied thru out the whole drive train
the debate which does the MOST ??????? damage
torque.....vs HP
depends on usaage altho torque is ALWAYS present
& is always multiplied......HP is not
back when bikes had considerably less HP than a 12 or 14
they torqued the swingram well OUT of alignment
some ran at the track the "bigfoot"........reinforced left side swingarms
some even now reinforce the countershaft area case
all things considered
whacking the left side of the frame...swingarm.... etc
which a 10...15lb sledge would move things around
& not come anywhere close to the hundreds of pounds of multiplied
torque being applied
(think hi torque hammer impacts)
ive even noticed (pics) that some in an effort to lower the bike
to the extreme
run a negative angle on the swingarm
which exacerbates the problem further
& sadly reduces handling & traction
which ever method used will provide you a modicum of
relief & improvement
with the dirth of pointer led's & lasers
do it yourself rigs in a darkend garage is cheap & ez
we use square aluminum cut ....suared & gauged as accuarate as possible
yields good results
ez to duplicate measurements & results
good luck
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or break your ass...!!
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zx12richard
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posted January 11, 2007 09:19 PM
GMD and Scott no longer in Manfield Texas???
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entropy
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posted January 12, 2007 12:19 AM
Edited By: entropy on 12 Jan 2007 00:37
quote:
GMD and Scott no longer in Mansfield Texas???
Richard,
GDM central in Atlanta said that my options were CA and Atlanta
google search shows GMD Computrack in Mansfield but ph number doesn't work.
musta moved???
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VincentHill
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posted January 12, 2007 03:31 AM
quote:
quote:
GMD and Scott no longer in Mansfield Texas???
Richard,
GDM central in Atlanta said that my options were CA and Atlanta
google search shows GMD Computrack in Mansfield but ph number doesn't work.
musta moved???
Or gone out of Business!
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dougmeyer
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posted January 12, 2007 07:22 AM
Vince,
You are perfectly capable of checking and tuning your chassis yourself (assuming it hasn't been crashed) and when you're finished you'll have that nice warm confident feeling about what you are riding. Come on give it a try!
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VincentHill
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posted January 12, 2007 10:20 AM
DM, When I get a few more things off my Plate, I will get right on this so that I can have more tools and ways to spend what little time I have left on this earth! After I finish installing the Sway Bar and tie rod ends and putting in Zerk fittings this Sunday on my true Rag (1982 BMW 320I) I will start the process of testing 5 different configurations of exhaust on my ZRX 1100 just to make sure there is not some more easy Power to be gained NA (I am at 140 uncorrected 134 SAE) and I would like to see 140 SAE HP without struggeling!
Then a little work on the 250 Ninja which may end up wiith the Muzz Man's Exhaust and some intake Mods. Then Astro Van for Shocks and Front end work then get my Taxes orgainzed and done, then back to the ZX12R. Isn't life Wonderfu??
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 12, 2007 10:43 AM
If you want good handling set the rear wheel to the front. Screw the sprocket alignment.
It wont wear out the sprockets or chain any faster. Thats what I was told from Peter Kates who owns the GMD boston (framingham) and rund the Penguin Racing school at NHIS.
They did My CBR1100xx when it was a year old back in 98 and the marks were way off from the factory.
When I got the 12r in 2000 that was one of the first things I checked and guess what, It was way off as well, about 1/2 a mark. Once you use strings (or a laser) to determine the difference in distance from the end of the swingarm to the axle block, write it down. Then you know where to set it every time after that.
Unless you bend the swing arm to where its supposed to be you cant fix sprocket alignment. But why bother, theres about 9 other things that are way off also.
But for average joe street rider, according to Kates, aligning the rear wheel to track directly behind the front is the most important and makes a noticeable improvement.
So I never brought the 12r to GMD. I just reset the marks on the blocks and marked them front and rear and left and right.
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Y2KZX12R
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dougmeyer
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posted January 12, 2007 05:55 PM
DItto. As I said earlier (somewhere) line up the wheels and them shim or shave the rear sprocket mount.
D.
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VincentHill
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posted January 12, 2007 06:18 PM
Y2K I have YET to get a Kawasaki that the Wheel alignment was not correct. The difference with the 12 was the Marks were Very CLose but the People that set up the Bike (WHo ever) had it off by 1 mark! I also have never seen the screws in the Carbs or FI at the same amount of turns either
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 13, 2007 06:10 AM
quote:
Y2K I have YET to get a Kawasaki that the Wheel alignment was not correct. The difference with the 12 was the Marks were Very CLose but the People that set up the Bike (WHo ever) had it off by 1 mark! I also have never seen the screws in the Carbs or FI at the same amount of turns either
Well, I can tell you my 12r is off just about a 1/2 a mark. Maybe I have shit luck in getting a straight bike. 
Yea, my idle air screws were all different as well.
Now I dont know this, but I think they use a wire gauge and dynamically set the throttle bodies at the manufacturer. Setting the blades first with screws in and then set the screws to a specific setting with a manometer. This way the base idle air flow is even on every set of throttle bodies. This would account for the differences in bypass air screw settings.
But again I'm guessing on that one.
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Y2KZX12R
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02zx12rbob
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posted January 13, 2007 10:11 AM
Edited By: 02zx12rbob on 13 Jan 2007 10:14
Just went by there the other nite, seems like they're (GMD) still there.. building, signs, etc. If need be I'll swing by in the day and see whats up. btw.. Richard you gonna make Goliad in March ?
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entropy
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posted January 13, 2007 01:01 PM
Matt,
yes indeed, please swing by and see if they are in operation. If so a tel number would be great!
Thanks,
Karl
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VincentHill
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posted January 13, 2007 01:13 PM
Good thought Karl about how they "MAY" have set the Throttle Bodies. NOW, What can you say about the Fuel Air Screw on Every Kawasaki I have ever received?
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dougmeyer
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posted January 13, 2007 05:39 PM
If the screws didn't need to be adjustable to make up for manufacturing tolerances, they might just as well just put in orifices, no?
Speaking as someone who has built FI throttle bodies from newly machined castings and a bag of parts, I can tell you that Y2's supposition is correct.
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