VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted January 01, 2007 09:04 AM
Oil Squirters? Revisited
Looking Under the Pistons, None of them looked Stressed (Baked Black). As thick as they are, they were ALL Silver underneath. BUT #4 which was Hot enough to burn the exhaust valve still did not burn the Piston and #1 with no Squirter melted the Piston and the Cylinder.
I Know the "Statement" on Squirters is that they actually make the "Engine" Run hotter, but can that be because the oil is removing more heat from the pistons?
My thought is to install Squirters for #1 and #3. Opinions??
  
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted January 01, 2007 09:31 AM
I have 4 "squirters" on my long suffering raggedy cases, but got convinced along the way that adding the extra 2 ones on my new cases was a waste of time. I have no idea if the engine was running hotter with the extra 2.
If you do add 2 more, hit me up, I have several spares. FREE for my pal VH!!!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 01, 2007 11:43 AM
quote:
.... but can that be because the oil is removing more heat from the pistons?
Yep, exactly. Thus a higher oil temp reading.
Maybe its a windage issue, maybe theres enough windage carrying oil on the cylinders without squirters so they didnt bother.?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted January 01, 2007 01:30 PM
ALL I know is the Piston that survived had the Squirter and the one that did not "Did not"!!
Karl we will soon be talking!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 01, 2007 05:03 PM
Coincidence, Vince.
Judging by the looks or your stuff. You'd have needed a firehose to cool that piston.
Besides the heat transferred into the oil from the underside of the piston crown, the oil temp also goes up just from the windage which also "mechanically" increases the oil temp. On "endurance" engines where you have an effective oil cooling loop to remove the heat from the oil, squirters can be effective, if the engine is designed to pick up that oil efficiently. They are also used a lot on air cooled engines where the cyl head temps regularly run 375 to 420F and the oil "bath" is critical to overall cooling (and you have BIG oil coolers).
Before synthetics, which don't color the same if at all, a "proper" temp indication on the underside of a piston crown was a nice caramel color. If it was clean, you knew you really weren't making enough power, if it was charred, you knew you were near to a failure.
Doug
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted January 17, 2007 02:12 PM
set up properly squiters wont raise the temp or windage significantly
the firehose analogy is patently wrong
your engine destructed from a blatant unintentional mistake
from way toooooooooo much fuel & NOS
in the cylinder
a miss fire & a flame front more than likely
broke that valve face off as opposed to the misconception
that the mixture was an acetylene torch
no less distribution singled out the #4 cylinder
you were probably part throttle
not sustained WFO
the squirters are simply a help.......overall
NOT a Cure
i was more interested from what i saw in your pictures
coloration of the piston tops........the cylinder heads
& valve coloration in their respective holes
a burn would have no less scored the piston top significantly
that valve is way harder than that piston top
yet a flame front......sonic in nature
such that preignition or detonation IS !!!!!
presents itself far quicker & is more distructive
juicing wet is always fraught with that possibilty
being off with any factor is Never GOOD
we all see the apparent results
good luck
that extreme environment predicated the mishap
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted January 17, 2007 03:21 PM
First to DM, You explained the one thing that was missing! The Color on the underside of the Piston. I was looking to see Charred or at least the Shiney Dark Brown and it was CLean!
Like Flight Leader I do not think WIndage will be or is my problem because of the Depth and width of the Oil Pan I use. I do agree that the main reason the Oil themp rises is the oil is carrying more heat from the bottom of the Piston and that a REAL Oil Cooler would help.
Wrong on the Part throttle by looking at the Data. It shows 103% Throttle (I was stretching the Cable) at the time the Jump of temp took place and then the RPM Drop.
I will take a better Picture of the valve in #4 Cylinder and you will see that it is not Broken but torched right through even the Valve stem where it had a perfect circle about 5/16" High and about 3/16inch deep at the base of the valve head stem area. Even some of the aluminum was blown into the exhaust hole and on to the Valve as I had to scrape this off to see the condition of the seat.
The Piston in #1 was also Blown through right into the cylinder about 1/4" Deep into the cylinder. You can see the spray of aluminum. I agree about the Possibility of the Miss fire (All of the Ground Electrodes were long gone and maybe the filling of the cylinder of the Fuel and nos did do the trick there. I was extremely lean because of not turning up the fuel pressure and that can also cause a Miss Fire. FOr the Shot I was using I was at about 8 degrees of retard. I was somewhere between a 125 and 175 SHot of NOS.
ANother problem was the NOS COntroller that kept the NOS Pressure steady so it did not drop and allow the Fuel to richen up the engine at the end of the run. Every GOod THing has a bad side I guess. I really do not believe I would have lost the engine if I had used the correct fuel mixture and that was totally my mistake. I do plan to use the Oil Squirters and a REeal Oil Cooler. I also play to make sure I have the "DATA" to support any tuning decisions I may make at the Track. Of course I have learned more than I ever wanted to!
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 17, 2007 04:25 PM
Vince, Its not a windage problem. You misunderstood what i was saying. I ment that the reason there isnt squirters on some of the cylinders might be because there is enough oil in the windage to cool those cylinders without oil squirters.
Windage would never cause the problem you had. You know what the problem was.
Lean, not enough fuel for the nos.
It happens all the time. I've seen dozens of blown engines from bad nos setups.
The same thing happens every time. The exhaust valves burn and the pistons melt.
At least you know what you did wrong. Its really scarry when you dont know what malfunctioned.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted January 17, 2007 04:52 PM
quote:
Vince, Its not a windage problem. You misunderstood what i was saying. I ment that the reason there isnt squirters on some of the cylinders might be because there is enough oil in the windage to cool those cylinders without oil squirters.
Windage would never cause the problem you had. You know what the problem was.
Lean, not enough fuel for the nos.
It happens all the time. I've seen dozens of blown engines from bad nos setups.
The same thing happens every time. The exhaust valves burn and the pistons melt.
At least you know what you did wrong. Its really scarry when you dont know what malfunctioned.
"AMEN" (Which is Usually MY Case! in not knowing what was wrong) It would not have hurt to have used 10 degrees of Retard either!! 
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC