shiphteey
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posted December 10, 2006 08:30 PM
Ceramic WHEEL Bearings....the TRUTH!?!?!
Having a hard time finding some real world numbers (before and after using the same wheels, tires, etc). What kind of gains can be seen:
1/4 mile
1 mile
Unlimited distance (i.e. Bonneville style)?
Not looking to hear if people think "They are worth it" etc etc. Several people throw then in when they get aftermarket lighter wheels so you can't really use that data when comparing to stock wheels, and stock bearings.
A.
  
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dougmeyer
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posted December 10, 2006 09:00 PM
You will not see "gains" . They are just one of those tiny things that all add up to some positive result.
Hey Shipteey- You're going to have a PM any minute...
Doug
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ricksgsxr
Zone Head
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posted December 11, 2006 04:34 AM
Nothing on the dyno and was told that before I bought them. Take a stock wheel/bearing and spin the wheel than do the same with ceramic bearings installed has to equate too a few mph on top.
I did so many mods at one time , wheels, bearings, rotors, ti bolts I cannot give hard data but it did get me on this less friction, less pumping loss fixtation  my 1070 is being rebuilt now with the ceramic tranny and water pump bearings, a host of different types of coatings on the internals etc less friction is not a bad thing to have
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GUNNER
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posted December 11, 2006 06:05 AM
Ship.............From all that I have been told from the man at World Wide Bearings.. The scoop is this. The best set of ceramics don't come with grease seals and require constant oiling and cleaning for MAX results. They do however sell a set of ceramics that do have a grease seal that will allow some sort of normal usage. BUT they are only maginally better than the average bearing because of the seal drag, and drag from the grease.
There is however a second choice that you can make.
Call a place named Bearing Works at 760-776-9595 and tell the man that answers that you want those special NSK bearings that he stocks that have the ( V V ) part number. They are a ZERO drag Gease seal and the ones he has contain some sort of low vis Grease, and they spin very very very free.. They only cost like 50 or 60 bucks for a set of all five bearings.
Next machine your wheel spacers to the point that they barely have contact with the wheel seal. THe reduced wheel drag is unreal!!!!!!!!!! On my 10R when I start it in neutral sitting on the stand the rear wheel will spin at 10mph with the trans in neutral!!!!!!! Thats with Motul 5 wt oil in the motor as well. There's simply VERY LITTLE drag and the thin ass oil is capable of spinning the rear wheel by over powering the wheel stiction. I'll bet if I used something stupid like 20/50 oil it would spin 20 mph in neutral.
Simply put these bearings are a great BANG for the buck. They aren't ceramics but once you get the ceramics outfitted in such a way that the average guy can keep up with the maintenance these bearings are very, very close and at a fraction the cost...
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VincentHill
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posted December 14, 2006 02:42 PM
Great Truths Gunner!
I sent an e-mail to Bear to see if he "EVER" went back to Ceramic Bearings after the problems at Gainesville. "NEVER" was the answer. This is from a Man that can have anything he wants and he does not want that!!
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MadMike
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posted December 14, 2006 03:41 PM
my rear wheel spins up on the stand in neutral also... they probably all do... I just figured it to a little bit of clutch drag... and I have standard OEM bearings in mine...
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shiphteey
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posted December 14, 2006 04:27 PM
MIne does, stock wheel and bearings....guess its a "fast bike" thing, heh.
A.
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted December 14, 2006 04:58 PM
Save your money, didn't need them to go 200. It's not cost effective gain.
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CrotchRocket
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Bracket Racing with Betsy
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posted December 14, 2006 05:41 PM
Either is an air shifter, right Bergie!!! 
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entropy
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posted December 15, 2006 01:18 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 15 Dec 2006 01:29
A couple years ago, I had a good discussion with a Ball Bearing Engineer about ceramics for this application. He said there would certainly be a small gain where there are heavy loads (sprocket carrier, trans shafts). The ceramic balls do not deform under load, smaller footprint = less friction.
IMO the dust seal thing is no big issue, simply dremel it a tad = no interference.
He also said lightly grease em, generally for lubes, treat em just like steel. and don't use WD40, etc type lubes.
VH: Like Bear, I also had a ceramic fail, but since I started lubing em correctly, no more problems. I am a big fan of Pierre's, but going away from a proven product because of a single failure???
It would seem that how the bearing/Seal/Lube performs at room temp, spinning by hand is NOT indicative of what its gonna do under full load at 3-4000 rpm.
But let's not out-science ourselves, eh?
Bottom line:
Q: do they work??
A: DaveO uses them...
A bigger issue could be the brake pads dragging. get yr front wheel off the ground and see how many times it will spin freely... Then pull the dust seals, clean all parts, and see the difference.
(to those who pry the pads away from the disk before a pass: be careful boys & girls)
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VincentHill
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posted December 15, 2006 04:58 AM
I told Ali of Bergie's Experience and he had the same one. The main difference was they have now paved the "Sand Trap" in Long SHut DOwn!
With Pierre Cost ve performance was a condiseration and with Steel they ran a 7.56 on a less than perfect run
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dougmeyer
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posted December 15, 2006 11:57 AM
Most of the drag is in the seals. That's the change you feel. It might be maybe a tenth of a hp.
Rick- A FEW mph? Get a grip. 200 to 203 mph is a 1.5% increase in speed and would require a 5% increase in power (or a 5% REDUCTION in drag) Figure you're already running 185 hp you'd need to be adding 9.25 hp to pick up that 3mph. That's about as much as a riding lawn mower puts out. If those bearings do that- sign me up!
Doug
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osti33
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posted December 15, 2006 03:27 PM
quote:
Bottom line:
Q: do they work??
A: DaveO uses them...
If Dave uses them they work. Period.
Might not be much but they do work.
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dougmeyer
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posted December 15, 2006 03:53 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 15 Dec 2006 15:55
Didn't say they didn't work. Said they didn't do anything measureable. As usual, you'd make a more significant change and go faster by skipping breakfast and taking a big crap before you run...
Worry about the big stuff until you absolutely have that all covered. I think entropy has a real handle on that philosphy.....
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shane661
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posted December 15, 2006 04:00 PM
Edited By: shane661 on 15 Dec 2006 16:01
Wow, this thread is enlightening. The guy at World Wide Bearings told me that customers reported 2-4 mph in the 1/4, and 5-7 mph at Bonneville!!!
I guess that was all BS....
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osti33
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posted December 15, 2006 04:48 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 15 Dec 2006 17:05
quote:
Didn't say they didn't work. Said they didn't do anything measureable. As usual, you'd make a more significant change and go faster by skipping breakfast and taking a big crap before you run...
Worry about the big stuff until you absolutely have that all covered. I think entropy has a real handle on that philosphy.....
No problem Doug. My comment wasn't directed at you. I was just making a general statement. I agree that the money will be better spent on something else. I have never used ceramic bearings and don't have plans to use them anytime soon. I'll have to remember that about taking a big crap before running. A lot cheaper than ceramic bearings. Shouldn't be a problem. My wife always tells me I'm full of crap.
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VincentHill
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posted December 15, 2006 06:20 PM
Dave O is at the Very edge of performance and anything he can do to gain even 1 or 2 mph is being done! ALL od this sort of reminds me of "Velocity Stacks"! There are a lot of things that you can do to make more power, but when you get to the end (Pipe, Powercommander, BMC Race Filters, Cam timing), "THEN" they make since.
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entropy
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posted December 15, 2006 08:21 PM
quote:
... ALL of this sort of reminds me of "Velocity Stacks"!....
yep, exactly!
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zrxdean
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posted December 17, 2006 05:10 PM
I just ordered some 'VV' bearings - double non-contact seals. I'll report back, but they are supposed to enable considerably less resistance. Only $62 for a set of 5, after some calling around. -Dean
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dougmeyer
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posted December 18, 2006 03:06 PM
Hey, they don't HURT- It's just not a magic bullet....... 5-7 mph on The Salt?
Please help me up.
I've got an idea, buy up a bunch and set up a stand in the pits- "Git yer 6mph here! Only 62 dollars! Git yer mph here!""
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zrxdean
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posted December 19, 2006 10:36 AM
Huh? I never said 5-7 mph Doug. And the ceramics are WAY more pricey than $62.
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MadMike
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posted December 19, 2006 10:47 AM
I have VV's in my bike now and I thought it was a much more cost effictive way to go...
and even though Doug's suggestion for skipping breakfast is not on the top of my list... I might have to give it a try, because I sure am not going to pay 250 bucks for another set.. or what ever it was...
maybe if I was 1mph from setting a record and then I would do both
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted December 19, 2006 02:23 PM
waste of money, spend $400 on track time instead, you'll get more out of it
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dougmeyer
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posted December 21, 2006 06:00 PM
Quoting shane, quoting the bearing guy (above).
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shiphteey
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posted December 22, 2006 09:26 AM
Good info guys. General consensus is that they yield small gains, virtually immeasurable. I thought if I got carbon wheels why not throw em in? I'll leave them as is for now.
As for the "Pads in the caliper" trick, I had no problems with it trapping 202.9. Made a U-turn at the long shut down of maxton about 30ish mph. Lots of air braking matching revs downshifting, etc. It works for me although when I did it was probably safer than when Bergie tried it as the course has been getting better but if anyone tries it please start w/slower speeds!
As for skipping breakfast and taking a big ol shit before a run....been there done that....worth a few lbs....but decreased focus is never a good thing.
A.
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