muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted November 30, 2006 12:07 AM
HELP WITH A TRANS CONCERN PLEASE
This concern might just be me, but I am a bit worried about it. I have found on occasion, about four or five times to be exact, that if I don't upshift the trans forcefully enough the trans fails to go into the next gear. This usually happens upshifting into fourth gear at normal speeds, not hard acceleration. The trans then appears to "free wheel" and clunks hard when the shift lever is pressed up again in an attempt to upshift.
I read in a post on this forum where a guy suggested adjusting the shift lever downward so the toe of your shoe has enough travel to properly upshift the trans. I lowered the shift lever in an attempt to make that happen, but I still have the problem occasionally. If I always upshift hard enough the problem does not occur.
The reason I'm concerned is my 05 Honda ST1300 does not do this. I have never missed an upshift on that bike. Niether have I had the problem upshifting with my 05 HD Road King.
All replies regarding this concern will be appreciated.
  
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted November 30, 2006 01:02 AM
That's called a false neutral and is not uncommon. I'd suggest changing your oil or trying a different brand.
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 30, 2006 06:29 AM
If it is only happpening on the 3rd-4th shift, it could potentially be a mechanical problem. I have only hit one false neutral in 15k miles, and it was 1st-2nd, and I knew it was a lazy shift when I did it. I have also found, on some other bikes, that if the chain is extremely loose it can make the shifting a little sloppy/suspect.
One of the 1st things I do when I get a bike is lower the shifter so that I can get more leverage. Always be careful that it doesn't interfere with the safe operation of the kickstand, however.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted November 30, 2006 06:33 AM
I would drop the Oil Pan and inspect the shift forks. If they are scuffed, they are most likely bent and need replacement. Also look at the shift drum detents.
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted November 30, 2006 08:16 AM
Yep put in new shift forks, do what Psycho said...
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted November 30, 2006 10:30 AM
 Edited By: muleskinner on 30 Nov 2006 10:31
Wow. I've only had the bike 1 1/2 months and it only has 1700 miles on it! Shift forks bad or bent??????????????????????/ I use Mobile one MC oil 10-40. Man I don't want the dealer taking it apart. I wonder if it is just me "Lazy shifting" it???
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 30, 2006 11:50 AM
If you are used to riding more of a cruiser, check your foot position on the peg. I have a feeling it is all in the adjustments, and your shifting technique.
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted November 30, 2006 01:41 PM
quote:
If you are used to riding more of a cruiser, check your foot position on the peg. I have a feeling it is all in the adjustments, and your shifting technique.
I will try that. I read in a post about a guy having the same problem. Someone replied to adjust the shifter down for more leverage. I did that and hoped it would solve the problem. I will try using more force on the upshifts and see how it works out. Having the dealer take the trans apart is the LAST thing I want!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 30, 2006 01:52 PM
Take a photo of your shifter/linkage and post it here. Also, if you can take one with your "normal" foot position, that would be good.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted November 30, 2006 02:00 PM
How do you shift? A or B?
A --you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let go of the Gear change lever, while Letting the clutch out and start to accelerate
B--you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let the clutch lever out and start to accelerate while letting go of the gear change lever
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted November 30, 2006 05:15 PM
quote:
How do you shift? A or B?
A --you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let go of the Gear change lever, while Letting the clutch out and start to accelerate
B--you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let the clutch lever out and start to accelerate while letting go of the gear change lever
The "A" method I believe.
I have never "speed shifted" the bike, as I don't want to screw up my transmission. Now in the old days when I was a young hot rodder I used to speed shift my street and dirt bikes and cars while accelerating hard all of the time. Now days I baby my stuff a lot more.
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted November 30, 2006 05:16 PM
quote:
Take a photo of your shifter/linkage and post it here. Also, if you can take one with your "normal" foot position, that would be good.
I will try to post a picture if I can figure out how to.
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 30, 2006 05:43 PM
quote:
quote:
How do you shift? A or B?
A --you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let go of the Gear change lever, while Letting the clutch out and start to accelerate
B--you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let the clutch lever out and start to accelerate while letting go of the gear change lever
The "A" method I believe.
I have never "speed shifted" the bike, as I don't want to screw up my transmission. Now in the old days when I was a young hot rodder I used to speed shift my street and dirt bikes and cars while accelerating hard all of the time. Now days I baby my stuff a lot more.
Well, I think "B" is the right answer. The acceleration actually will seat the bike firmly in gear. That is the whole purpose of the undercut gears. The power pulls the gears tighter together.
But I still suspect you are shifting slow and lazy, relative to what sportbikes are designed for.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted November 30, 2006 11:16 PM
I would suggest, as a cheaper and easier alternative to a mechanical solution, that an oil change should be your first line of attack. Some vehicles are very sensitive to oil viscosity and additive packages, and this may be one. I have never cared for the shift quality of Mobil oils in motorcycle transmissions, despite the used oil analyses reading fine, and I have seen a brand and viscosity change completely cure an apparently malfunctioning transmission. E.g., my CBR900RR only liked HP4 10W40, my FJ1100 only liked Castrol Syntec Blend 10W40, my RC51 liked Maxima Ultra 5W50, my CBR600F3 liked Redline Racing 30, my CBR929RR liked Chevron Delo 400 15W40, my 01 GSX-R750 and 03 GSX-R1000 liked Royal Purple Racing 21 (but not 10W30) and my 05 GSX-R1000 likes Rotella-T 5W40 and Torco T4SR 20W50. Straying from these brands and viscosities caused a marked decrease in shift quality and sometimes clutch performance. Find the oil your motor likes and stick with it - you will know when you've found the right one.
BTW, "speed shifting", or shifting without the clutch, can be done without any ill effects on the transmission or shift mechanism. That is, of course, once you identify and use the right oil... Our top ends and chassis components wear out way before our transmissions show any signs of wear, despite using the "C" shifting method (pin throttle, preload shift lever, tap the shift button that interrupts the coil power, release shift lever, repeat). You may also find that you can achieve more positive upshifts by running GP-style shifting (1 up and 5 down).
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted December 01, 2006 12:07 AM
quote:
I would suggest, as a cheaper and easier alternative to a mechanical solution, that an oil change should be your first line of attack. Some vehicles are very sensitive to oil viscosity and additive packages, and this may be one. I have never cared for the shift quality of Mobil oils in motorcycle transmissions, despite the used oil analyses reading fine, and I have seen a brand and viscosity change completely cure an apparently malfunctioning transmission. E.g., my CBR900RR only liked HP4 10W40, my FJ1100 only liked Castrol Syntec Blend 10W40, my RC51 liked Maxima Ultra 5W50, my CBR600F3 liked Redline Racing 30, my CBR929RR liked Chevron Delo 400 15W40, my 01 GSX-R750 and 03 GSX-R1000 liked Royal Purple Racing 21 (but not 10W30) and my 05 GSX-R1000 likes Rotella-T 5W40 and Torco T4SR 20W50. Straying from these brands and viscosities caused a marked decrease in shift quality and sometimes clutch performance. Find the oil your motor likes and stick with it - you will know when you've found the right one.
BTW, "speed shifting", or shifting without the clutch, can be done without any ill effects on the transmission or shift mechanism. That is, of course, once you identify and use the right oil... Our top ends and chassis components wear out way before our transmissions show any signs of wear, despite using the "C" shifting method (pin throttle, preload shift lever, tap the shift button that interrupts the coil power, release shift lever, repeat). You may also find that you can achieve more positive upshifts by running GP-style shifting (1 up and 5 down).
What is a 'GP" style of shift? The shift pattern sounds backward????????/
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted December 01, 2006 12:09 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
How do you shift? A or B?
A --you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let go of the Gear change lever, while Letting the clutch out and start to accelerate
B--you let off the throttle and pull in the clutch. You then raise the gear change lever, let the clutch lever out and start to accelerate while letting go of the gear change lever
The "A" method I believe.
I have never "speed shifted" the bike, as I don't want to screw up my transmission. Now in the old days when I was a young hot rodder I used to speed shift my street and dirt bikes and cars while accelerating hard all of the time. Now days I baby my stuff a lot more.
Well, I think "B" is the right answer. The acceleration actually will seat the bike firmly in gear. That is the whole purpose of the undercut gears. The power pulls the gears tighter together.
But I still suspect you are shifting slow and lazy, relative to what sportbikes are designed for.
I have never heard of the "B" method of shifting. Is this something relative to sport bikes only?
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted December 01, 2006 12:15 AM
TYPE OF OIL
So what is the oil brand and viscocity most folks use with the 12? I thought M-1 MC specific 10-40 oil was a good MC oil. Keep in mind I live and ride in the high desert of So California where the normal summer day is around 110 degrees. The winter can be cold though, but I seldom ride if the tempature is below 50 degrees. I have read on some forums where a lot of folks use M-1 gold top in their wet clutch bikes with great results.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 01, 2006 06:04 AM
With the "B" Method of Shifting and someone said, it helps "PULL" the gears in from the 1/8 inch engagement to the full 3/16 to 1./4 inch engagement and hence no missed gears.
This have always been around but mostly Racers do it to save their transmissions in the long races. It is the ONLY Way I shift gears
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted December 01, 2006 10:02 AM
GP-pattern shifting is reversed compared with stock. It allows you to have more control on your upshifts, which are more time-critical, at the expense of having slightly slower downshifts, which tend to be less time-critical. It also keeps the rider's feet from getting pinned between the pavement and the foot controls, should a mid-corner shift be attempted.
Again, it doesn't matter what the most popular oil choice amongst other ZX-12 riders is if that oil isn't performing well for you. You need to find the right oil for your machine and your set of circumstances. Most synthetics have cold pour points (specified by the first number in a multi-grade viscosity rating) well south of your riding temperature envelope, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that. Based on the nominal oil clearances I've seen inside these motors, I think I'd try something on the thicker end of the viscosity scale.
BTW, the second number in a multi-grade viscosity rating is the viscosity of the oil at normal operating temperature, and is probably the most relevant for your riding conditions, as even straight 40 petroleum will flow well down to 40*F. That number, in conjuction with the viscosity index (you may need to do some searching for that) will tell you how well you can expect the oil to maintain viscosity once the motor is fully warmed up.
One caution on the "B" and "C" styles of shifting is that the side-load on the shift forks is prolonged by the additional dwell on the shift lever, and this can cause accelerated wear if not done properly. The gear dogs will load up as soon as tension is re-established in the upper chain run inthe final drive, and the whole shift sequence should only consume 40-100 milliseconds. Applying load to the shift lever for much longer than that can lead to excessive shift fork wear. In short, gearshifts should be quick but not reckless with light but authoritative inputs on the controls. If it's not possible to make your ZX-12 shift this way currently, you need to find out how to provide it with an operating environment that will allow it to.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 01, 2006 10:47 AM
TC Chin, Well said! You just cannot up load pressure on the lever and leave it there. The main idea of the GP Shifting is the foot clearance.
Ask Doug Meyer how he feels about the GP Shift pattern Some time and really be upset!
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted December 01, 2006 01:03 PM
1700 miles.... I hope you haven't torn your motor down for this problem.Sometimes the bike will require a little better fitment to you,Meaning adjusting the shift and clutch levers to fit you and make you a little more comfortable to ride.I know that you adjusted the shift lever but maybe you need to try again. I can't see at 1700 miles a bent shift fork unless you pounded the shit out of this bike.Mine took a little while to break in so to speak,so maybe the K.I.S.S method would prevail here.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted December 01, 2006 01:56 PM
quote:
1700 miles.... I hope you haven't torn your motor down for this problem.Sometimes the bike will require a little better fitment to you,Meaning adjusting the shift and clutch levers to fit you and make you a little more comfortable to ride.I know that you adjusted the shift lever but maybe you need to try again. I can't see at 1700 miles a bent shift fork unless you pounded the shit out of this bike.Mine took a little while to break in so to speak,so maybe the K.I.S.S method would prevail here.
I can't agree with the mileage and bent shift fork.
A few forced gear changes can bend them in my experience.
Some people rest their foot under/over the the shifter and will burn a fork in no time.
Good news is that you can change the forks by pulling the clutch basket and oil pan.
It's a down and dirty but it's not a hard job.
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muleskinner
Novice Class
Posts: 69
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posted December 01, 2006 04:41 PM
No I did not pound the shit out of my bike! Besides using a modified version of Motoman's break in method, I am very easy on the bike. I NEVER do burn outs with the bike, nor do I speed shift it without using the clutch. As a matter of fact, I only upshift my bikes by letting off of the throttle and pulling in the clutch (At the same time) first before I shift the trans.
I believe a bit more adjustment of the shift lever to fit my foot may be in order. I think what is happening here is I am being a bit lazy when I upshift and am not putting enough upward preasure on the shift lever.
One thing that completely puzzles me is the "B" method of shifting. I have been riding street and dirt bikes and quads since 1968 and have always used the "A" method of shifting with no problems. I have never heard of the "B" shift method until now. Also, this is the first bike I have ever had do a false nuetral on me. Is the "B" shift method something unique to sport bikes?
As for the oil I use, I have read on various bike forums and on the "Bobs the oil guy" site, that some folks swear by Delo 400 15/40 diesel engine oil for their bikes. They say they have never experianced a clutch slippage problem using this high Moly content oil. Can someone here comment on this oil for use in a sport bike?
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted December 01, 2006 05:01 PM
As I said above, I have used this in some of my other bikes, and it worked flawlessly in my CBR929RR. The Mo content in the CI4+ formulation is not very high, and will not affect a healthy clutch. The Mo was added to fortify the additive package when the CI4+ standard mandated lower Zn and P levels. I have not been very satisfied with the new formulation from a shift quality standpoint, and based on that, together with the reduction in Zn levels, I've decided to switch to Shell Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40 and Torco T4SR in both my street and race vehicles. At $16.12 per gallon at Walmart, it's hard to go wrong with the Rotella-T 5W40. (Torco is free.)
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 01, 2006 05:07 PM
You just have never Road Raced Specially "Back in the Day" The way I shift is is almost IMPOSSIBLE to miss a Shift or see wear on the edges of the Transmission Dogs! Have you ever seen inside a Bike transmission and watched the shifts and see the small amount of engagement? That is why the gears are "BACK CUT" so as you add power they will pull themselves together. Once you see and understand this then the way some of us shift will make 100% "Mechanical" Sense.
Remember when I was growing up I shifted exactly like you did. When I started working on the engines and racing and seeing the transmission damage I changed and now everything in my trans looks Brand New and never a Missed shift or a Jump out of gear ever.
That by itself is reason enough!
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