supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted November 06, 2006 01:45 PM
Hans Snorkel 02-05
Just got an email from Hans. He says the ram air front face for the 02-05 will be on sale soon. He is still working on the intake runners for these years... He is also working on other products. Just looked over at ZX12r-org and Entropies data suggest that the Hans works a little better than the 00-01 OEM system. Others are trying top speed runs with both systems.
To be continued...
supra
   
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WARBIRD
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted November 06, 2006 05:58 PM
I have one for the 00/01's................got it from swft...........never have tried it. Was always afraid of the fender coming up and smacking it under hard braking........
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I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
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crashtech
Zone Head
Posts: 574
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posted November 06, 2006 06:40 PM
Hey warbird, If you are not going to use it I would like to. For a fee of course.
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vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
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posted November 06, 2006 08:50 PM
Hans is using my 02 ram air snorkel as a template...
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted November 07, 2006 09:35 AM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 7 Nov 2006 09:36
..
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted November 10, 2006 02:14 PM
Entropy tested the Hans snorkle 00-01 in the 1/4 mile where ram air isn't really coming into play that much.
Perhaps the Hans snorkle made a slight difference at lower speeds because there was little air velocity till the last 2 seconds of the 1/4 mile (and even then, not that much). My theory with the Hans snorkle is that the extra volume being grabbed at lower speeds will HELP the airbox recover sooner... but once air velocity speeds up, the air must travel from a large opening to a smaller opening in the tubes going to the airbox... hence creating more PRESSURE in the tubes .... and as pressure increases, velocity decreases, meaning that the air is being SLOWED DOWN before it gets to the airbox.
Besides, I'd think that the extra clearance of the stock snorkle would be more benefitial than 1-2rwhp gained over the 1/4 mile.
I know that the 02-up scoop is 30% larger in area, but it's also the same size as the tubes, meaning it helps more at lower speeds with extra volume without sacrificing air velocity.
I understand the A model snorkle protrudes out into the area of greatest pressure infront of the nose, but perhaps the added area and sleeker aero's of the B model snorkle make up for that while still giving the benefit of more volume at lower speeds like the Hans snorkle?
Of course, I'm not an aero engineer or anything... but I don't think Kawasaki would have revised the ram air system and slow the bike down. Let's be honest, the entire appeal of the bike is it's Top Speed abilities, not it's "styling". If styling was what sold bikes..... the Busa wouldn't roll off the showroom floors 3:1 compared to the ZX-12R.
A lot of people say the B model scoop is for "styling" and the A model Snorkle was pure function before form.... I say the B model scoop is Function AND Form.
Anyway, I'd like to see how the Hans snorkle does via Datalogger testing in a Top Speed run and compare it to the Stock Snorkle. Maybe someone can lend that person a B model front cowling and compare that as well?
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GUNNER
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posted November 10, 2006 02:17 PM
quote:
Hans is using my 02 ram air snorkel as a template...
Isn't that wadded up 
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted November 10, 2006 04:38 PM
In my opinion, the B model ram air system only needs two things.... remove the screen and seal up everything with silicone.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted November 11, 2006 12:31 PM
as I recall when reading the old post about the hans snorkel
doug meyer said that the opening of the intake didnt matter only density
and speed let me go back and find the quote..
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Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
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posted November 11, 2006 05:00 PM
With all respect to Doug, I'll have to see the exact quote before I respond to what you're saying.
I agree with the fact that air velocity (speed) is what matters. In fact, that's the point I'm making. Air Velocity is what makes power via the ram air... Basically, the faster you can replenish the air being sucked out of the airbox, the more power you're going to make.
That being said, the opening of the intake doesn't matter, so long as it matches the size of the tubing going into the airbox. If the opening is larger than the tubing, the pressure created slows down the air before it makes its way to the airbox.
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vozizm
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Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
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posted November 11, 2006 05:11 PM
quote:
quote:
Hans is using my 02 ram air snorkel as a template...
Isn't that wadded up
nah,, that part made it out ok!!
FELLAS... THE SNORKEL HANS IS MAKING IS A DIRECT CF REPLACEMENT NOT A MOCKED UP BIGGER IS BETTER TYPE DEAL...
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted November 13, 2006 02:56 AM
I wished he had made it that way to begin with. Just a carbon fiber replacement snorkel.
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crashtech
Zone Head
Posts: 574
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posted November 13, 2006 04:47 AM
quote:
I wished he had made it that way to begin with. Just a carbon fiber replacement snorkel.
Any chance of an "A" model replacment snorkel?
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vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
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posted November 13, 2006 07:47 AM
Iam sure he will do it.. You guys know Hans rushes for no one.. If someone has one he can use as a template I am sure he will do it... As long as you are not in a rush to get it back..
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted November 13, 2006 04:16 PM
I loved the look of my Monster Snorkel on the 01 I had - looked like it was gonna suck the weeds offa the side of the road as I went by
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted November 18, 2006 09:28 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 18 Nov 2006 09:32
quote]Entropy tested the Hans snorkle 00-01 in the 1/4 mile where ram air isn't really coming into play that much.
Perhaps the Hans snorkle made a slight difference at lower speeds because there was little air velocity till the last 2 seconds of the 1/4 mile (and even then, not that much). My theory with the Hans snorkle is that the extra volume being grabbed at lower speeds will HELP the airbox recover sooner... but once air velocity speeds up, the air must travel from a large opening to a smaller opening in the tubes going to the airbox... hence creating more PRESSURE in the tubes .... and as pressure increases, velocity decreases, meaning that the air is being SLOWED DOWN before it gets to the airbox.
Phantom;
Actually, the exact opposite is happening. In a static environment (Dyno), the Hans is a touch less restrictive and will allow 2-4 h.p. over the stock.
The Opening of the stock snorkel is@ 7531 mm square. (which is close enough in measurement due to it's shape to make this point). This size opening is @ 14% SMALLER than both frame intake tubes combined (@ 4374 mm/sq. each). This difference in area allows the intake tubes to enlarge gradually as they approach the frame tubes. This enlargement allows the incomming air to SLOW DOWN, which in turn boosts pressure.
The Stock snorkel recovered to ambient as soon as 40 mph. at W.O.T.
The Hans However, is @ 11, 487 mm/sq.! That's about 34.4% larger than the stock snorkel and @ 23.8% larger than the total area of both frame tubes. This forces the incomming air to SPEED UP as it enters the airbox, which in turn causes pressure to drop.
The Hans NEVER recovered to ambient during my testing!
I observed a .38+ psi. drop over the stock snorkel at W.O.T. , 6th. gear @ 11,000 rpm. (Stock Gearing)
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted November 18, 2006 03:26 PM
wait a minute... have you ever done high speed back to back
testing with both snorkels? In addition have you done quartermile runs
with both snorkels and done quantified testing of which snorkel averages
the best e.t. and mph.? These are the only test that matter. Fearsome
K and others have had excellent results with the product.
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 18, 2006 03:41 PM
quote:
quote]Entropy tested the Hans snorkle 00-01 in the 1/4 mile where ram air isn't really coming into play that much.
Perhaps the Hans snorkle made a slight difference at lower speeds because there was little air velocity till the last 2 seconds of the 1/4 mile (and even then, not that much). My theory with the Hans snorkle is that the extra volume being grabbed at lower speeds will HELP the airbox recover sooner... but once air velocity speeds up, the air must travel from a large opening to a smaller opening in the tubes going to the airbox... hence creating more PRESSURE in the tubes .... and as pressure increases, velocity decreases, meaning that the air is being SLOWED DOWN before it gets to the airbox.
Phantom;
Actually, the exact opposite is happening. In a static environment (Dyno), the Hans is a touch less restrictive and will allow 2-4 h.p. over the stock.
The Opening of the stock snorkel is@ 7531 mm square. (which is close enough in measurement due to it's shape to make this point). This size opening is @ 14% SMALLER than both frame intake tubes combined (@ 4374 mm/sq. each). This difference in area allows the intake tubes to enlarge gradually as they approach the frame tubes. This enlargement allows the incomming air to SLOW DOWN, which in turn boosts pressure.
The Stock snorkel recovered to ambient as soon as 40 mph. at W.O.T.
The Hans However, is @ 11, 487 mm/sq.! That's about 34.4% larger than the stock snorkel and @ 23.8% larger than the total area of both frame tubes. This forces the incomming air to SPEED UP as it enters the airbox, which in turn causes pressure to drop.
The Hans NEVER recovered to ambient during my testing!
I observed a .38+ psi. drop over the stock snorkel at W.O.T. , 6th. gear @ 11,000 rpm. (Stock Gearing)
Based on the intake vacuum being static, for a certain rpm...(let's say it is the same at 11k rpm, all the time)...
How does the air rushing into the box faster (meaning, a greater volume of air) equate to less pressure in the box?
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted November 18, 2006 04:33 PM
I will revive the "Hans Test / Doesn't Work" Thread to help answer some of these questions.
Some of the GOOD stuff comes in later in the thread......
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted November 18, 2006 04:40 PM
Pay special attenton to info I provided from Kevin Cameron's book, Doug Meyer's input and my actuall on the road testing and findings.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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shane661
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posted November 18, 2006 06:51 PM
Well, after reading a bit...is .3 psi difference really significant? Or are both scoops going to give you roughly the same hp? Also, I would have like to have seen a test with the snorkel blocked, just for comparison.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted November 19, 2006 05:14 AM
When the ECU "see's" the pressure drop with the Hans, your FI system will be leaned out.
A lean condition in conjunction with a .3 lb. (below ambient) pressure drop would be a considerable power loss.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted November 19, 2006 05:59 AM
quote:
The Opening of the stock snorkel is@ 7531 mm square. (which is close enough in measurement due to it's shape to make this point). This size opening is @ 14% SMALLER than both frame intake tubes combined (@ 4374 mm/sq. each). This difference in area allows the intake tubes to enlarge gradually as they approach the frame tubes. This enlargement allows the incomming air to SLOW DOWN, which in turn boosts pressure.
The Stock snorkel recovered to ambient as soon as 40 mph. at W.O.T.
The Hans However, is @ 11, 487 mm/sq.! That's about 34.4% larger than the stock snorkel and @ 23.8% larger than the total area of both frame tubes. This forces the incomming air to SPEED UP as it enters the airbox, which in turn causes pressure to drop.
The Hans NEVER recovered to ambient during my testing!
I observed a .38+ psi. drop over the stock snorkel at W.O.T. , 6th. gear @ 11,000 rpm. (Stock Gearing)
This pretty mutch sums it up.
Kawasaki didnt just slap this system together based on hearsay and opinions. Believe it or not they "engineered" this system as a system with the engine that is part of the "system".
Basically the inlet area was carefully calculated for the 1199cc engine comsumption. And the volume as the air travels down the system keeps enlarging to trade off velocity for pressure. Remember energy cant be created nor destroyed ever in any case whatsoever. It can only change state. So in this case velocity "kennetic energy" is being changed to static pressure by reducing its velocity. If the inlet opening is bigger and the cross sectional area gets smaller all the way to the frame upenings then the velocity is increasing and static pressure is dropping. Like it or not, thats the way it works and you cant change physics.
So it makes sence that on a dyno it may produce more power just like running the bike with the frame covers off , does on the dyno. but its not the real world dynamic situation that the bike sees at speed. And after all it is a motorcycle to be ridden and not just run on a dyno.
I have a set of reed plates designed and partially made that addressed the issue of low airbox pressure when opening the throttle quickley large amounts at low speed (below 50 mph). But the lack of room for filtration bacame an issue so I scrapped the project and just made flat blockoff plates instead.
Now that the engine is 1375cc and the air requirements are higher it might be worth picking up the project again.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted November 19, 2006 06:03 AM
quote:
When the ECU "see's" the pressure drop with the Hans, your FI system will be leaned out.
A lean condition in conjunction with a .3 lb. (below ambient) pressure drop would be a considerable power loss.
Actually the a/f ratio shouldnt change. Yes it will remove fuel, but only what the amount it needs to to maintain the desired a/f ratio because less air is entering the engine.
So yes it will reduce power but not change the a/f ratio.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted November 19, 2006 10:47 AM
Hey Y2K ide like to pick up that reed plate project myself.. Send me pm and tell me what you had in mind..
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