Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 06, 2006 06:53 AM
Top tuners advise please
I have an 05 ZX12R. I have a full muzzy. I dont have a power commander.
It seemed a little rich at lower rpms .... small amount of black smoke upon a blip from the
throttle.
I have a micron slip on that I have gutted the internals. It no longer
has the black smoke....but I wonder how this affected the combustion over
the broader spectrum. It used to be a matter of plug reading....or I thought so
I hope that I have not laboured under that if it was a myth...
Im at a loss on this...obviously with the FI...short of the yoshimura /
or pcIII with the ability to load and view a fuel map. I would appreciate any
input concerning tuning from basics to pro advise
My last bike was a 78 KZ1000 w 29mm smoothbores converted to cdi ign
with a Kerker. owned it from 88 to 2001. If it has oil inside it ,my brother can kill it
even an old "B" model
  
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted September 06, 2006 07:08 AM
"Top Tuners" Leaves me out  Big Jump from a KZ 1000! Only the Manufacture and the word Motorcycle are the same between them!
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 06, 2006 07:26 AM
Yes it is a jump. Dont leave yourself out. I have read my of your posts as a guest, along with
several others. I suppose that sounds ingratiating, but I am confident that you along with others can give sound advise concerning my question. I waited several years for my kids to
grow up before I bought a new bike. I just wanted to do it once more before I get to old to do it. I still have a few years left . Im 45 and just trying to enjoy going over the hill. Help from this
forum may turn the gray in my beard back to original color.
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted September 06, 2006 07:27 AM
I am an Idoit, but I did have a KZ900. My dad bought it new in 1977 passed it down to my brother and when I recieved it the old KZ was a little tired with 60+k on the odometer. I still thought it was impressive when I was eighteen, until I was given a hand me down 1984 GPZ1100.
If I remember correctly my stock 12 with Muzzy slip on ran rich down low and lean up top before PCIIIr was added.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted September 06, 2006 11:37 AM
As a Very Wise person (DOug Meyer) once said to me, "We did a Lot of things to tune the engine before the PCIII came out. But why try all of these things when for about $250 you can install a tuneable Map system and remove all of your problems!. Under the Guise of a Top Tuner I am going to say to you Spend the $250 or less (Look at the Classified Here and not on e-Bay to find a PC3 and get a Map from from someone with a2004 or Later ZX 12 anbd enjoy the tuning process.
BTW, when you are only a Month away from 63 Years Old being almost 20 years "YOUNGER" looks pretty good and Young to me! You still have the Big 50 and Bigger 60 to go!
|
buddy
Expert Class
Posts: 335
|
posted September 06, 2006 01:56 PM
Vincent, youngster, you've got a couple of years to go to catch me. 
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted September 06, 2006 02:27 PM
quote:
Vincent, youngster, you've got a couple of years to go to catch me.
Why is There always 1 in the Crowd! If I was 100 someone would be 101
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
01zx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 338
|
posted September 06, 2006 06:00 PM
Dont be fooled
Just because you snap the throttle and the bike smokes I wouldnt worry much. What I would suggest is a data recording system where you can tune your bike under real driving conditions if you plan on getting the most out of your bike...Tuning by Air Fuel Ratio is the only way to go....
____________
Lovett Racing/Pedigo Performance
8.40 @170
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted September 06, 2006 06:03 PM
The 12s run rich and you dont need a PC...If you use 87 octane gas it will run better!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 06, 2006 08:18 PM
are you serious about the 87 octane. I thought you had posted something previously about runing VP with great results. I also hear conflicting opinions on digital interface. ie pc3
I like the idea of running the pc3 and I wouldnt expect to find a map for the gutted micron.
this was just a way to experiment with resources at hand, which by the way seemed to be
an improvement. the rich puff didnt worry me, I thought that maybe someone had some
explaination of how the factory FI map tends to be one way or the other...for a lack of a better way to describe it.
BTW thanks for taking time to give your input!
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted September 07, 2006 03:39 AM
Run the lowest octane fuel that doesn't ping and you will get the best performance.
IIRC the VP race fuels are also oxygenated, which allows them to push more fuel and "air" into the mixture, improving performance and not affecting the jetting. The octane is higher to prevent the 'hotter' fuel from detonating, but octane itself is NOT a performance improver. It needs to be used and *needed* before it will improve performance.
Factory FI maps are designed to do one thing: Pass emissions tests. Under the testing conditions they required that map to get the test engine to run correctly and clean enough to pass muster with the greenies. Since two different engines off the same line can run remarkably different (performance wise) it follows that a "one map fits all" scheme is inherently flawed, but that's just the way it goes. FWIW the yamaha i have ran way rich from the factory. YMMV though.
BTW not a top tuner, nor a mediocre tuner. so if needed i'll add a few lumps of salt
  
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 07, 2006 05:03 PM
I should'nt have used "Top Tuner". I just wasnt sure how to address the upper crust.
There I go again. Someone is going to comment about being crusty. I do appreciate
all that share their knowledge. I'm just trying to drag up the rear, but if thats the place
I have to start....so be it. What does the pc3 need in the way of an interface other than
usb. I guess i could look on their web site.
|
thekaz
Needs a job
spell chequer is bustimicated
Posts: 2909
|
posted September 07, 2006 05:11 PM
quote:
Run the lowest octane fuel that doesn't ping and you will get the best performance.
IIRC the VP race fuels are also oxygenated, which allows them to push more fuel and "air" into the mixture, improving performance and not affecting the jetting. The octane is higher to prevent the 'hotter' fuel from detonating, but octane itself is NOT a performance improver. It needs to be used and *needed* before it will improve performance.
Factory FI maps are designed to do one thing: Pass emissions tests. Under the testing conditions they required that map to get the test engine to run correctly and clean enough to pass muster with the greenies. Since two different engines off the same line can run remarkably different (performance wise) it follows that a "one map fits all" scheme is inherently flawed, but that's just the way it goes. FWIW the yamaha i have ran way rich from the factory. YMMV though.
BTW not a top tuner, nor a mediocre tuner. so if needed i'll add a few lumps of salt
this man is speaking the truth 
|
Blast Master
Novice Class
Posts: 40
|
posted September 08, 2006 04:46 PM
Wow alot of educated zx12 guys on this site. I would of never guess using lower octane in my 12 would make it run better and harder. I also have a 05 model. Can't wait to test it out with the lower octane. Thanks!
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 08, 2006 07:58 PM
Let me say thanks again to all that share thier knowledge! That is why I read the old threads.
Much here to absorb while I work rotating shift.
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 09, 2006 04:09 AM
Let me continue to show my ignorance and ask why the sticker on the tank cover makes the statement about minimum octane requirement. Is it just another way for the fat cats
at the big oil companies to increase their already record profits..LOL
|
thekaz
Needs a job
spell chequer is bustimicated
Posts: 2909
|
posted September 09, 2006 07:46 AM
quote:
Let me continue to show my ignorance and ask why the sticker on the tank cover makes the statement about minimum octane requirement. Is it just another way for the fat cats
at the big oil companies to increase their already record profits..LOL
Becuase under certian conditions the ninja may require higher octane but as a rule of thumb it is best to run the lowest octane possible for any given engine at a given altitude..
Up here in Canada my ninja runs best and gives the best dyno numbers with 89 octane ( assumming i am not running MR9  )
The sticker is there so people will never be bringing their bikes back to the dealer with "pinging" issues
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 09, 2006 07:02 PM
OK, regarding the octane thing. "Lowest you can without pinging" is a valid statement, BUT
when you do that you remove all "cushion" and safety margin that allows you to run hard under all conditions. Say you've got a load of cheap stuff and you get caught on a 100F day , or got somebody on the back and you're crankin' on it. You can (and would ) have some incipient or audible detonation. Problem is, you won't hear it. And when you see the results, it will be too late AND expensive. Running the good stuff is cheap insurance. The increase in power with the lower octane (assuming no detonation) is very small and only a small amount of detonation will kill the power bigtime.
Back to the original question. That little puff of black when you blip the throttle is not only normal, it's desireable. If you don't have that you'll probably get a lean stumble. Don't worry about it.
But, like Vince said, go buy a PC3 get the correct map from Muzzys and you'll get your money's worth out of the pipe.
|
navpreet318
Expert Class
one crazy 12
Posts: 192
|
posted September 09, 2006 07:33 PM
yup bay a pc3 and i bet there are loads of people here that'll give you thier maps and you can try them all....and see which one works...but be aware not to take the maps of the A models as they DIDN'T have secondary throttle bodies.....and B models have secondaries....makes a lot of difference......
other than that nothing better then getting a dyno or using a wideband to map it yourself....
you'll have an awesome bike then....
and keep a look out on ebay for pipes.....you might end up with a very very awesome deal there....like someone got an arata full Ti for 699$
____________
2005 ZX-12R,Arata Full Ti, PC3,Gillis
Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
Race filters.One Crazy 12
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted September 10, 2006 04:22 AM
Nav...Just the b3-b4 have the secondaries!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
navpreet318
Expert Class
one crazy 12
Posts: 192
|
posted September 10, 2006 08:46 AM
oh...didn't even notice that in my manual....so they've put these only on the b3-b4.....
thanks for the info....
btw if any one here is tinking about removing the secondaries in the b3-b4 12r's...don't....a guy on zx-12r.org tried it and mapped it...and said he didn't get anything more out of the map...no power increase at all....
____________
2005 ZX-12R,Arata Full Ti, PC3,Gillis
Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
Race filters.One Crazy 12
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC