NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted July 19, 2006 05:45 PM
Megacycle cams
This spring, I was finally able to spend the money to get a nice set of cams. I mostly run nitrous, so cams weren't on the top of the priority list, but I wanted the motor to run a bit stronger on motor so I ordered a set of Megacycle X1 / X5 cams. Big, but not super radical. I think the lift was .405 / .385 intake / exhaust.
So I ordered the cams in February. It took 10 weeks to get my cams welded and ground. OK, so there goes springtime, but I should have ordered them earlier. I ordered them through a very reputable machine shop here in MA., figuring if anything goes wrong, I have some leverage?
So I break in the cams by the book, with cam lube etc. Motor starts lightly ticking within 50 miles. Uh Oh... I take the valve cover off and check the cam clearance and they all checked out...almost. One exhaust valve was loose by .002. Being paranoid, I took the cam out and the top of one of the exhaust camlobes is wiped out. Great, I already sold my other set of cams.
So the reputable shop I bought them through sent my e-cam back to Megacycle. 10 weeks later I get my cam back today with a $190 bill to repair it. I am totally pissed.
Nice way to back your product Megacycle. So much for customer service.
  
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted July 19, 2006 06:11 PM
 Edited By: osti33 on 19 Jul 2006 19:16
Sorry to hear about your trouble. I have had great luck with megacycle in the past.
I set them a set of cams to be repaired and the cams arrived on a Monday and on that Wed they called me and said they were all done. I didn't use any shop. Just called them up on the phone myself. I had them back in the bike the following Monday. One week and they were repaired and back in the bike.
Here is the thread.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=18467
Back to the point of my post...NOBODY warrantee's race parts. Period!
You can't expect them to repair it for free. How do they know you installed them corectly and broke them in by the book? They don't. I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I would be pissed too. I'm just trying to point out where Megacycle is coming from.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 20, 2006 12:54 AM
sorry to hear about yr troubles, but i echo what Osti said; best to calll em directly. I will bet yr shop didn't send em out as fast as they said???
call Barbara @ Megacycle: 415 472 3195, M-F 9-5 PST; get an explanation.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 20, 2006 12:59 AM
sorry to hear about yr troubles, but i echo what Osti said; best to calll em directly. I will bet yr shop didn't send em out as fast as they said???
call Barbara @ Megacycle: 415 472 3195, M-F 9-5 PST; get an explanation.
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted July 20, 2006 03:41 AM
Fair advice. Totally frustrated with my 12 this season. Less than 50 miles of riding. Great machines as delivered stock, but IMHO, totally unreliable (and difficult to work on) when heavily modified. Marginal customer service is just the topper.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 20, 2006 06:36 AM
The Water Cooled Kawasaki engines are not easy on Cams and the AIr Cooled were very easy on the cams. Personally I use Web Cam. The woman that owns it is really sharp and I have sent them 3 cams and they have made up one for me with the Base Circle of the one cam, The Profile of the next cam and the Timing of the 3rd cam. New Cams not rewelded. When Installed all of the shimming was perfect!. They are the ones that told me that the Water cooled engined are very hard on cams and they cannot make them last as long as the stock cams last. The difference is, they tell me before the fact!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 20, 2006 04:29 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 20 Jul 2006 17:32
Due respect Vincent, but........
The liquid cooled Kawaski's are not "hard on" cams., they are just less tolerant of departures from the OEM design. The higher loads imposed by aftermarket cams cause failures because of the metallurgy and compability with the tappets. The cast cams approximate the stock metallurgy and when used with a more aggressive lobe shape or a higher spring pressure they are subject to spalling and surface failure. The welded cams from Megacycle are harder but will do the same when used with stronger springs. On ANY aftermarket cam used on an OHC engine without rocker arms, spring pressure is critical. Why? Because without a rocker arm ratio to leverage lift, the cam needs to provide the entire lift on the lobe alone, which necessitates very steep ramps (and the resultant higher acceleration rates and loads on the cam/tappet interface). There seems to be a tendancy to "overspring" aftermarket cams - I don't know why. The most important dynamic in the valve train is light valve, valve spring, and retainer weight, not spring pressure. You always want the LIGHTEST spring pressure that allow max RPM with full control of the valve. (It takes a lot of power to push those springs). A properly designed lobe shape can use light springs and still control the valve.
When ZX-11s were the shit, Muzzys sold a lot of Megacycle cams and I used them on all my bikes even before my affiliation with Rob. An interesting thing occurred. Suddenly Megacycle announced that they were going to cease selling ZX-11 cams due to an unacceptable failure rate. Since we had not had any failures to speak of we made a special deal for them to continue to make them only for us without any warranty from them.
The difference was, Muzzys required STOCK pressure valve springs to be used and Megacycle had been requiring their stronger "race" spring be used. The stock springs were more than adequate and cam life was virtually unchanged from stock. In my humble opinion Megacycle is second only to John Andrews when it comes to designing cam lobes, so I don't understand why that it occurred, but it did.
Doug
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 20, 2006 04:38 PM
quote:
"
The liquid cooled Kawaski's are not "hard on" cams., they are just less tolerant of departures from the OEM design. The higher loads imposed by aftermarket cams cause failures because of the metallurgy and compability with the tappets."quote:
Isn't that what I was saying   ! I just simplified all that she said and it was the ZX11's they were having the problems between the Cam an the rockers with the Galling of the cams
The Lever ratio is something I never thought about because the KZ1000's drove the cams directly over the Buckets.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 20, 2006 06:17 PM
Well I wanted to temper the insinuation that there is a problem with the cams or the design. There isn't. It's just that like so many things the design is pretty cutting edge and it's hard for an aftermarket company to do better.
True that the KZ's were "direct" but the large diameter of the buckets allowed a much more gentle profile. Remember how we had to go to oversize buckets when we wanted lots more lift? Those profiles would never work on a small engine like the 12. The four valves are necessary to provide the same airflow that we got from two with higher lifts.........
The 11 used the rockers to increase the lift with the "smaller" cams.
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megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted July 20, 2006 08:14 PM
Thanks! You guys just convinced me to stick w/my stockers  All kidding aside, I really appreciate the knowledge, experience, and willingness to share the wealth....
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted July 21, 2006 11:45 AM
Like to agree with you Doug, but the bucket had almost no wear on it (.003), while the cam (one lobe only) lost .030 off its peak in less than 20 minutes. Sounds like insufficient case hardness on the cam lobe to me. I do run higher spring pressures, but that's because I used to spit shims with stock spring pressure. Busas don't seem to have this problem.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 21, 2006 10:09 PM
nos
I also run "high" spring pressures, not because I have had any shim spitting-type problems, but because the collets seems to round the groove on ss valves at lower pressures.
I like to see 60-65# seat pressure, what do you run????
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted July 22, 2006 03:58 AM
Based on a number of factors (extended ECU, spray, etc), my seat pressure is 65# - 70#. I had been running at 55# to 60# but I spit a collet and "almost" dropped a valve last year. The year before that I did drop a valve, and lost the entire top end of the motor. If you float the valves with lower spring pressure, I have seen cam failures on the back side of the lobe. The valve floats and impacts the backside, resulting in failure. Doug might be right. Mabey the cams can't take this kind of spring pressure?
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mountainmotor
Parking Attendant
Posts: 15
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posted July 22, 2006 08:21 AM
Something to think about when trying to compare welded cams used in the old two valve motors is that they used solid cam cores and they could really lay the weld on them . Also , only the KZ650 & GPZ1100 came with shim under type buckets . Most always , the KZ's were converted to aftermarket shim under buckets that used a harder Rockwell rating that was more compatible with the weld material of the day . The buckets themselves were of large enough diameter to run plenty of lift most builds without getting into lifter run off . Machining the head for lobe clearance was all that was required .
These liquid cooled engines that have hollow cam cores require easy going on the weld to help stop warping . Nothing inherent with the fact the engine is liquid cooled comes into play with cam grinding process . It's just that they are hollow cores and must be reworked with a different process . It almost a could be called stich welding and taken in steps to limit warping . Most of these type lobes are not completely welded all the way around the lobe . They try to maintain the base circle and stay off the heel of the lobe and most times just weld up high on the flanks and nose of the cam .
.410 lift is the max that a stock ZX-12 cam bucket can take before run off so this grind is on the edge but should still be good for the go . Some designs can be effected in terms of run off by duration also but thats not the case here and neither is the lift .
My advice since only one lobe was affected would be to double check that the valve retainer to seal clearance is sufficient and that there is not a valve spring fitting problem on reassembly . Obviously the single cam bucket should be replaced and bucket bore checked to make certain the bucket will rotate and move up and down freely . You should be able to lightly oil the bucket and bucket bore and rotate/move up and down with a small magnet w/o any hitches .
Use good engine oil and after degreeing the cam put more cam lube on the lobes before spinning the motor to get the oil pressure up .
Good luck with it .
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countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
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posted July 22, 2006 08:40 AM
very good thread guys,
thanks for the interesting reading
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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