droid
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posted June 17, 2006 01:07 PM
Sorry isn't this what i already wrote?? But hey just goes to show that there are a few mechanics on this thread now
  
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speedgene
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posted June 17, 2006 02:23 PM
 Edited By: speedgene on 17 Jun 2006 15:26
Sounds like the oil pump shaft needs to be inspected even on 12's that run right now?. I'd chase for "mushrooming" on the cir-clip's machined groove, and then reinstall? Dump the pan, inspect, pull the pump, and junk it (shaft/clip). Maybe this (shaft) might be taken as an "hour" type part about to clock out of the engine; something like a motocross piston? No doubt the engine will show debris in the pan. But what/who caused it is the key? Five-0 might have some insight on the mileage these bikes seem to grenade at? If I had a 12 within this year range, and it ran?.... I personally wouldn't wait any longer.
I'm glad there are a few short sided- not too through in their diagnosis- doesn't seem to listen to "experience" kind of mechanics that came aboard to the thread.
I'm one of the so called, "animals." You stick to replacing water pump blades for an engine failure. You'll figure it out soon enough.
Stay focused on the thread. Help Solly (and others). Keep the ego at the door. Give the (helpful) input, not the banter. I can play both ways too, if you like?
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five 0
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posted June 18, 2006 05:57 AM
We race about 30 laps a night on 1/4 to 1/2 size ovals. Mileage would not be that high, but we run them right on the limiter all night. I have seen them last 6 laps and I have seen them last 4 years. I think the main thing that gets them is oil related. Some guys just take better care of there stuff than others. I have not seen this "clip" deal at all that I know of. I have seen the shafts break, but only a few times. Always oil related!!! I am not an engine builder, so this could be a weak spot in the engines. Someone that has them apart all the time might want to start looking at that.
5-0
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droid
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posted June 18, 2006 08:56 AM
Edited By: droid on 18 Jun 2006 10:08
Quote
"I'm glad there are a few short sided- not too through in their diagnosis- doesn't seem to listen to "experience" kind of mechanics that came aboard to the thread.
"
SG
Are you saying that i was not being thorough in my diagnosis??
Coz cracking a filter and winding an engine over to see if you get oil come out is a bit like throwing dollar bills in a campfire.
If you have dollar bills to set fire to then carry on seize your engines see if i care, i only come to these boards to HELP fellow cyclists and will ONLY help if i know the answer or what i'm talking about.
As for dropping the pan and junking the o/pump shaft etc, that is no 5 min job and most guys here seem to take their bikes to a mechanic just to do the valve clearances i'm sure they won't tackle clutch basket removal etc.
There should be very little load on the oil pump shaft unless the pump is galling the bore and starting to seize or the water pump jams.
Quote "Solly, new oil shaft, new cir-clip. Place cut edge of cir-clip to the "thrust side." so it digs in. Ask "The Man" how many hours the shaft's life has, then buy new again."
Any circlip of the punched out variety has a good side and bad side always place the rounded side towards the washer /bush /bearing etc. the sharpedge will face away, and be carefull with this particular circlip as too much pressure on c clip pliers will render it useless. Never ever reuse one
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speedgene
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posted June 18, 2006 09:53 PM
OK, I assumed the clip fails, and the rod drops? I should look at the parts blow out. My fault, I'm sorry.
So, some pump rods snap, you say? Oil related also? Droid seems to know the engine family. He knows the trick about the pump shaft, but never came across engine failures/oil cavitations like, 5-0, or a few posters here? Then there are other related models (10's) of the same brand doing this too.
Droid, try this. If what info you have so far, what would you come up with?
Let's get all this "BS" out of the way.
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entropy
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posted June 19, 2006 12:52 AM
Edited By: entropy on 19 Jun 2006 01:54
quote:
Coz cracking a filter and winding an engine over to see if you get oil come out is a bit like throwing dollar bills in a campfire.
droid,
You seem sincere in your desire to help folks so I will make one more attempt...
There are times when a mechanically perfect 12 does get in a situation where the oil pump just won't make any pressure.
This OFTEN happens when the bike has fallen over while running, and sometimes happens when the motor is just built.
Disconnecting the injectors (so motor won't start), and cracking the oil filter, then turing the motor over until oil starts seeping DOES WORK, and doesn't hurt anything. I use this process every time i start a fresh motor.
This is not BS, or shade tree mechanic wrong-headed advice.
BTW:
1. I am excessively concerned about oil pressure on my 1427, with an analog oil pressure guage and I log oil pressure on every pass. I am not a newbie passing on 2nd hand advice.
2. breaking oil/water pump drive shaft:
VERY rare, and as canadamaxxer pointed out above, I have the unique "pleasure" of being one of the only 2 cases I know of. Mine was very, very likely due to a set of pretty severly warped cases; probably water/oil pump binding.
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ninja12
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posted June 19, 2006 07:00 AM
Short story that might help someone.
I had a old dodge work truck with side pipes (loud).
The gear postion did work so i had to count the click to find drive.
One day I loaned this truck to my brother. When it came back it was knocking.
He had drove it to town in second gear, said it wouldn't shift into drive.
Being a shadetree with good contacts at the salvage yards I bought a good used engine
and swapped it out. Next day I decide to save my heads before junking the Block.
Guess what i found when i pulled the valve cover off. 1 bent push rod!
Lesson learned, start simple and work into the big stuff.
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dougmeyer
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posted June 19, 2006 02:27 PM
Droid,
Not BS at all. In fact there was a Kawasaki service bulletin that dealt with just this occurance. Air locks, especially with non standard coolers and plumbing, and non priming pumps are not at all uncommon. Keep in mind that the average user my only be faced with a filter change 10 times in the time he has his bike.
Others, like Mike, Entropy, me, etc. may have changed a ZX-12 filter 50 times or more and have run into this.
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speedgene
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posted June 19, 2006 02:45 PM
Are we talking about the old theory about the cam lob pulling up on the cam chain and "dry scoring" the upper crank bearing insert, then on the opposite end of the crank; digging into the bottom of that crank bearing insert kind of failure?
Does the flat blade (13216) break off the shaft? Is this the area of breakage? I see 49065 as an air pocket waiting to happen. If that rubber 92055A is hard and dry, it my have shrunk enough to let air suck in between the filter screen and pump orifice
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted June 19, 2006 03:26 PM
have had many a car
more than a few bikes
endurance raced many a year
never one burped a filter
Never had to.....
that some have with success
i cant argue
this i know
cut your engine off
oil drains back.......thru many returns & some lines
overnight or 20 mins
this happens
when i change oil & filter
i fill filter to the top
20 mins b4 installation
so that it saturates media......
if you dont its short a few more cc's or ounces
then i spin it on
1/4 turn backwards....the rest the correct direction
have never seen a red lite or a drop in pressure
on engines that have installed pressure gauges
i would think that this scenario is NO
different than if i had cut the engine off
let it sit........ then cranked it up
ive even measured the amount of oil that comes out of a used filter
to compare.......!!!!!!!!
the method i used is at least equal to ....... or More !!!!
than if i had not made a oil & filter change
as a result of such hi speed work out
in that i suspect that many off these engines spend
most all there time WFO & close if not up against the rev limiter
results in my comment
check the pressure relief valve
in above circumstances in racing engines
springs have fatigued..... broken &
valves have stuck
IN THE WRONG POSITION
this is the only site
& the only time ive herad of burping a filter
to those that do
continued success
ill pass
burp babys only
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dougmeyer
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posted June 19, 2006 09:18 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 19 Jun 2006 22:20
Check the service bulletin.
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ninja12
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posted June 20, 2006 11:25 AM
This is very easy to check and only cost you 2 minutes of your time.
Would you rather burp the filter and find out it was a oil pump or
tear your engine down and find out it was a air pocket?
Who knows it could actually fix it.
Sometime a little knowledge and money can work against you!
Read my previous post.
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five 0
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posted June 20, 2006 11:44 AM
Have yall noticed that we are doing alot of talking here and not heard back from the guy that started the post. ??? Did he fix it???
5-0
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flite leader
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posted June 21, 2006 02:33 PM
burpin a fliter result in zero ..... to very LOW
oil pressure on the crank
not sayin it dont work
not sayin it is the worse thing in the world
the remote filter relocator muzzy used to sell
is a very good alternative
strange i do know some that dont fill their
filters when changing oil
question
why is that burpin the filter just as likely
when not changin the oil
after youve taken in a movie
or eaten a meal
guys would be doin it all the time
fillin the filter...............................Full
then placing it in a horizontal position
allows fluid(oil) to run back down the passge way to the pump
maybe inadvertently priming it
but at least haviving near the correct amount
in proximity to the pump & filter
Negating burpin it
a few are having the problem
many are not...................
& at the very least i dont think burpin
is the best solution
nor indicates why a few are having the problem
id rather Not have the problem
& i certainly would rather Not take the chance
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droid
Expert Class
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posted July 05, 2006 02:42 AM
Been away a while and see that Solly still hasn't looked back .
Solly tell us what you found.
BTW changed my oil again left over night , refilled with oil and changed the filter DRY. Cranks up oil light went out in 3 secs.
Now i can only assume that coz i'm running a new oil pump in a 28000 mile motor i'm getting good suction compared to the burpers!! ( I moly greased it on install like the old days with the Ford pinto oil pumps and the rover V8, buick based i believe )
Consider a few drops of gripe water in the oil!!
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madmike
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posted July 05, 2006 05:50 AM
quote:
Droid,
Not BS at all. In fact there was a Kawasaki service bulletin that dealt with just this occurance. Air locks, especially with non standard coolers and plumbing, and non priming pumps are not at all uncommon. Keep in mind that the average user my only be faced with a filter change 10 times in the time he has his bike.
Others, like Mike, Entropy, me, etc. may have changed a ZX-12 filter 50 times or more and have run into this.
Yep, I had it happen a couple of times...
easy, easy fix... and all it cost was time...
MM
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entropy
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posted July 05, 2006 10:51 AM
I really don't think the need to burp the oil by loosening the filter is a question of new/old oil pumps. I have had it happen on brand new pumps and old pumps and I always fill the filter. Just a quirk of the quack.
BUT, remember the trick of loosening the filter if you ever let yr bike fall over while running. Cances are better than even the oil light will come on when you restart it, and won't go off without burping.
BTW: I believe that the oil pump draws directly from the sump, then pumps to the filter and thence to the oil galley/oil pressure sensor.
Thus pre-filling the filter shouldn't impact a situation where the light won't go off, rather it would impact how long the light takes to go off.
my 2cents 
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