solly
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted June 07, 2006 12:40 PM
Oil pump -Help!
I am running a slightly modified 2002 ZX12R engine in a C sports race car. The engine uses a wet sump with remote filter and oil cooler with a 6 quart capacity. This was my first time driving this car.
On Monday the oil return line fitting worked its way off the engine, dumped all the oil out, and I lost all oil pressure. After putting everything back together and refilling with oil I could not get any oil pressure. Engine starts and ticks over just fine..
A friend mentioned that the pump may have lost its priming and was sucking air. Can anyone give me any advice on fixing this problem as simply as possible? Thanks
   
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted June 07, 2006 12:59 PM
Crack the filter and let it puke a bit. Usually, this is an air bind in the filter.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 07, 2006 01:00 PM
loosen the oil filter completely and crank the engine over, once oil starts to leak tighten the filter. In your case it may have to loosen/remove the filter adapter plate .
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five 0
Expert Class
Posts: 215
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posted June 07, 2006 04:11 PM
The oil shaft might have gone also. Depending on how long you ran it without oil pressure, you might want to rebuild her.
5-0
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 07, 2006 06:33 PM
Also disconnect the Injector harness so the engine turns over w/o fireing while the pump primes.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 08, 2006 06:27 AM
I usually just bump the starter repeatedly until Isee oil then re-tighten.
He can decide on oil pump shaft and rebuilds after he Tries
to get oil pressure. If he gets oil pressure ,
i wouldn't worry about the shaft or rebuild until I saw reason.
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droid
Expert Class
Posts: 133
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posted June 08, 2006 06:35 AM
Take the water pump cover off and try GENTLY with a 10mm spanner to see if there is resistance, if the impeller turns easy the shaft is gone.
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five 0
Expert Class
Posts: 215
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posted June 08, 2006 07:22 AM
I have seen more blown zx12 engines than maybe anyone on this site. We have found if you run one without oil pressure for a VERY short time, you better put bearings in or she will blow soon. Maybe his is OK, depends on how long it ran without oil pressure. I once blew the O-ring out of the oil filter and I oiled down the whole back straight of the track. I thought for sure I was in trouble, but when I drained the pan to take the engine out of the car I had only lost about 3/4 of a quart. We decided that I did not loose enough oil pressure and the engine was fine. Just depends if the motor ran without oil at all???
5-0
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 08, 2006 10:22 AM
quote:
Take the water pump cover off and try GENTLY with a 10mm spanner to see if there is resistance, if the impeller turns easy the shaft is gone.
Before or After he primes the filter?
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droid
Expert Class
Posts: 133
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posted June 08, 2006 02:22 PM
If he can turn the impeller he aint never gonna prime that filter is he!!!!
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flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
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posted June 08, 2006 04:36 PM
check the presure relief valve
now you know you got a problem
you would check all these things b4 going back to hammer time
you might not have damaged the engine the 1st time
right now tho you need to check & check again
good luck
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or break your ass...!!
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 08, 2006 11:40 PM
5-0 is who I'd listen to. Oh, you are not going to like this, Solly.... Pull the engine. Tear it ALL down. You probably hurt it more trying to diagnose it running with no oil. Remember, the top end is the last to be lubed.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 10, 2006 05:22 PM
quote:
loosen the oil filter completely and crank the engine over, once oil starts to leak tighten the filter. In your case it may have to loosen/remove the filter adapter plate .
before you start yanking parts do what G is saying...
Also, as psycho says unplug the fuel injection while turning it over.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 10, 2006 10:04 PM
Thank you!!!!
How many times have we heard of these bike loosing prime from a simple oil change?
Who tore their bike down?
If you are really that scared put a guage on it.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted June 12, 2006 06:09 AM
I put a Guage on my 1270 a long time ago.
Scared?!?! NO Sir! I feel that the idiot light is really a "time to rebuild your engine light" 
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 12, 2006 09:22 AM
If "five 0" is a credible member, then I would go with experience. Solly, you're in the upper power-band for 20 some odd minutes, right? I rather see you waste a teardown, and a gasket set than oiling the track, and picking up engine parts. Pop the valve cover. Pull a cam cap. Was it running dry? If it's not hurt, I'd run it around the block, come back, pull the filter, cut it, check for debris, and call it a day. Your choice?
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new, but...Top off (prime) the new oil filter with oil. Work quick without stripping the threads on either end. Whatever leaks out, so be it. The oil light should instantly go out.
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droid
Expert Class
Posts: 133
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posted June 16, 2006 04:44 PM
This is BS i had my oil light go out within 3 seconds of startup on a rebuilt motor, i have never heard of anyone loosening a filter to prime. Stop the monkey rig engineering and check it properly, remove the water pump cover and check the impeller, if it turns easy the shaft is gone if it doesn't then the drive is OK. Right so you are this far REMOVE the oilpump it doesn't take long . If you lost oil it is likely the pump seized and broke the drive it's a gerotor pump in an ally housing, no oil no lube no cooling Bang.Look at it check it if its ok smear it with vaseline and reinstall, if its U/S replace it they are only £25 but again vas it up if you do all this and still can find no reason then check the relief valve, you will need to use spanners again and remove the oil pan, while you are in there you can check that the pick up hasn't dropped off!!! If everything is OK then pre fill your filter and install a mech gauge that you know works, and start up if no reading within 4-5 seconds then give up and tear the motor apart.
Read the advice from all and take what u rely on. Its your motor, your cash to repair but if you crank it over for 10 seconds at a time, times how many to see some oil dribble from the filter you will wreck your main bearings if you have an oil supply fault.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 16, 2006 11:13 PM
quote:
This is BS... i have never heard of anyone loosening a filter to prime....
hmmm... read above, now you have...
very solid advice, yes.
not BS, no.
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droid
Expert Class
Posts: 133
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posted June 17, 2006 03:25 AM
BS yes........... what qualification do the instigators of this type of walt disney mechanical engineering hold or did they read it on a forum somewhere?? If your oil pump cant suck oil from 3 inches below it i would question the type of oil being used, or the condition of the oil pump.
I work on engines that have far greater oil capacities and 4 inch diameter suction lines to the oil pump and you would NEVER consider loosening an oil filter to PRIME it. The filter is on the pressure side of the pump therefore if it ain't sucking from the pan it will never fill the filter
Again this thread is BULL
Post facts
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted June 17, 2006 05:51 AM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 17 Jun 2006 06:53
...
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted June 17, 2006 05:58 AM
If BS means you don't understand then this could be BS.
I have personally had to loosen my filter to get the oil pump to prime on my bike.
I did read about the problem long before I had a problem when a board members NEW
bike won't build oil pressure out the crate back in 2000. He reported that the dealer
was advise to loosen the oil filter and the oil light went out.
If you want to call BS it's ok.
If some want to inspect the oil pump and shaft, it's ok.
If other want to rebuild the engine, it's ok.
But you know how I fixed the same problem.
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Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted June 17, 2006 06:10 AM
quote:
If "five 0" is a credible member, then I would go with experience. Solly, you're in the upper power-band for 20 some odd minutes, right? I rather see you waste a teardown, and a gasket set than oiling the track, and picking up engine parts. Pop the valve cover. Pull a cam cap. Was it running dry? If it's not hurt, I'd run it around the block, come back, pull the filter, cut it, check for debris, and call it a day. Your choice?
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new, but...Top off (prime) the new oil filter with oil. Work quick without stripping the threads on either end. Whatever leaks out, so be it. The oil light should instantly go out.
Five O IS the source for 12R parts on the WEB! As he stated above more 12R motors have sifted past his finger than most probably anyone else. He's very deeply involved in putting these things into those little race cars and has NO equal there. IN fact there would probably be more spare motors laying around for the rest of us if he didn't buy them ALL up! I would take his advise on this situation in a half a heart beat! Rebuilds are cheap compared to repairs!
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted June 17, 2006 09:37 AM
What I find interesting is that I am in the process of rebuilding my engine as a result of the oil pump driveshaft breaking. At the time it failed, I put out a call to the bikeland members regarding this kind of failure, and the ONLY member who had dealt with this kind of failure was Entropy. Now I read that guys are suggesting to pull the water pump cover and inspect to see if the pump spins freely or not.....this would suggest that the shaft snapping is more common than once thought.......if there is a suggested method of checking the shaft....
In my case the snap ring failed and allowed the shaft to walk and reduce the surface area of the male/female spline. This sheared off the female lugs. I pulled the engine down and found minor wear on the bearings, but enough to justify replacement. One month and over $1000 later the engine is nearly complete (my today's project).
Oh, and make sure the oil pump driveshaft (the RH one, with the gear on it) has 2, I repeat 2 washers stacked behind the snap ring. Mine only had one.....which may have helped the snap ring to fail.....
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 17, 2006 11:20 AM
You know, when canadamaxxer throws in his 2 cents, they are Gold Coins!
So, this tells me (and I'm sorry, I do not know the design of the bike's engine) if I remove the water pump cover, spin the impeller, this brilliant deduction tells me the cir-clip is out of it's groove on the oil pump shaft?
Where do I sing up for that "walt disney mechanical engineering" skool?
Me, an "instigator?"
Add this to the mickey mouse mechanic's hand book. Here's my entry for any bubble-head that can figure out a different "mouse trap?" See, my ball scratching idea is to pivot the bike over, and just tap the foot pegs on the ground. Do it to both sides.
What I want to do (but can't see, just theory?) is to break the bubble-seal inside the pick up tube. If I can displace oil where the "air gap" is now, my light should shut off ASAP upon start-up? it's a "Bullshit" idea, I know I know.
Solly, new oil shaft, new cir-clip. Place cut edge of cir-clip to the "thrust side." so it digs in. Ask "The Man" how many hours the shaft's life has, then buy new again.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted June 17, 2006 11:54 AM
quote:
You know, when canadamaxxer throws in his 2 cents, they are Gold Coins!
Aw shucks, I'm blushing
quote:
So, this tells me (and I'm sorry, I do not know the design of the bike's engine) if I remove the water pump cover, spin the impeller, this brilliant deduction tells me the cir-clip is out of it's groove on the oil pump shaft?
Where do I sing up for that "walt disney mechanical engineering" skool?
This is not necessarily true. It is POSSIBLE that the snap ring has been dislodged, but this does not have to be the case. To me the snap ring failing makes the mose sense, but there is another symptom to be had: lots of metal at the bottom of the oil pan and in the clutch cover. The shaft walks over as a result of the failed snap ring and grinds against the inside of the clutch hub.
If the snap ring is in place (easy to see with the oil pan off) AND the water pump impeller spins freely, the shaft (could be either shaft for that matter) is most likely simply broken. The "WHY" was the question that was killing me what I first saw the failure, but when I saw the snap ring out of place, the light came on in my head. This is not to say that the shaft can't simply snap off and still have the snap ring located correctly.
The more I think about this, the more I think the single spacer washer vs dual washers is the root cause of the failure, or at least was a major contributor. Imagine the snap ring having to hold the force of the shafts trying to push apart, but the shaft are able to get a "run" at the extra clearance.....it is much harder for the snap ring to hold together when the force is not just a "push", but a "slam" and a "push".
quote:
Add this to the mickey mouse mechanic's hand book. Here's my entry for any bubble-head that can figure out a different "mouse trap?" See, my ball scratching idea is to pivot the bike over, and just tap the foot pegs on the ground. Do it to both sides.
What I want to do (but can't see, just theory?) is to break the bubble-seal inside the pick up tube. If I can displace oil where the "air gap" is now, my light should shut off ASAP upon start-up? it's a "Bullshit" idea, I know I know.
Solly, new oil shaft, new cir-clip. Place cut edge of cir-clip to the "thrust side." so it digs in. Ask "The Man" how many hours the shaft's life has, then buy new again.
It's possible that the bike has an air lock, but that is possibly due to a worn oil pump that doesn't have the suction due to the poor sealing of the inner and outer rotors ( this is a geroter style pump BTW). I have never had the airlock problem, but have heard of guys having to crack the filter (as stated in previous posts). You MAY find tipping the bike will burp the system.
If you have gone so far as to pull the water pump cover off and accessed the impeller, you could always pull the impeller off, pull out the spacer sleeve, and pull the oil pump gears out. A quick inspection, and if the gears are ok, reinstall and pack the gears with either heavy oil or white grease (to improve the pumps ability to suck). start the bike and see what happens.....
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