pmkin10r
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posted January 09, 2006 05:31 PM
That high 99 mag bike was not the only instance where the Busa posted a faster time. I believe sportrider did an article on why the less powerful busa posted a higher top speed than the 12. Their verdict, not surprisingly, was the Busa's better drag coefficient.
  
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trenace
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posted January 09, 2006 05:43 PM
Other tests were by trivial amounts of difference, and nowhere near that 194 mph figure. In recent years, the 12 has won most tests. Those tests are in British mags, as American mags lost interest in top speed tests of those bikes since then and has done very few. Whereas the Brits have had two or more magazines testing each bike, often at the same time, each year.
Anyhow, old news.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 09, 2006 09:09 PM
The real world Hayabusas were never able to consistently surpass the speeds of the12, and as trenace correctly pointed out, that Cycle World test result was never repeated by anyone. Everybody on the inside knew that bike was a ringer.
I would like to make mention of "pre-production" bikes. In almost all cases the pre-pros are inferior to the production bikes. Pre-pros expose the weak points in reliability and assembly and the production bikes benefit from this.
I have one of two pre-production ZX-12A engines in my garage (Rickey has the other one) and I could list the parts that were better when the production bikes came six months later. That topic, and the supposition that Rickeys 10.52 bike was in some way superior has always cracked me up when all you guys were going nuts on it.
D.
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speedgene
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posted January 09, 2006 09:14 PM
Probably the best (person) source to ask this question to... is you Doug. This is more a hypothetical than anything. My question goes beyond the here and now. The politics, liability, natural resources, infrastructure quality (roads), nay-sayers, etc., are all out of the equation.
Since a decent percentage of riders have (on the streets of the world) come close to, have met, or surpassed the 186 mark, is it possible to cruise at 210mph on a bike? In other words, would you sit on a bike for a half an hour straight, to go 105 miles in physical distance?
You've gone over 2 tons plenty of times Doug. How safe does it feel at that speed if the factories released a bike that does just that? When does the front end go light until input is non-existent? Will fairings evolve with down-force?
The reason I ask, is because the guys who own generic "limiter" bikes (who have taken them there limit), know how to handle these speeds currently. 210 will mean nothing to them. Is (210mph) the next "limiter" ceiling...hypothetically speaking?
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dougmeyer
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posted January 09, 2006 10:16 PM
"Stability" isn't much of an issue at all. Those spinning wheels are a couple of powerful gyros. It takes a lot to change direction at those speeds, which can be a hazard in itself, although cross winds can be problematic as well. Aero stability is not much of an issue either, in my opinion, simply because bikes are so un-aeordynamic, so there's no lift like you get in a car. If everything stays together and you have traction it's no big deal. The issue is how much room you have, not in front of you, but NEXT to you. It's more of a "guts" thing knowing that if something goes wrong, you're probably history before you know what hit you or what you hit.
You should ask John Noonan. He has my utmost respect. 245- now THAT'S fast.
Doug
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trenace
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posted January 09, 2006 10:58 PM
quote:
I would like to make mention of "pre-production" bikes. In almost all cases the pre-pros are inferior to the production bikes. Pre-pros expose the weak points in reliability and assembly and the production bikes benefit from this.
I should have more precisely said engineering development bikes, if there were ever any that ever did such speeds. Irrelevant since the public never got it, ditto for the "194 mph" Busa. Pre-production indeed was not the right term.
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speedgene
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posted January 09, 2006 11:56 PM
Thanks for answering my Q. Doug.
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pmkin10r
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posted January 10, 2006 12:41 AM
http://www.qsl.net/n5mya/testdata.html
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dougmeyer
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posted January 10, 2006 08:20 AM
Old news.
Notice that as experience was gained, the gap narrowed. And that, with one anomalous exception for both bikes, the 'Busa never exceeded that CW speed. And since then, day after day, all over the world, guys on 12's wax 'Busas. I don't hear much out there anymore about which one comes out on top in a roll on.
What I KNOW, however, is that I ran the 12 lap after lap in really bad air (80F, 75% h) at 192+ in.9 mile at Maxton for Kawasaki when the then VP Bob Moffitt asked me (thru Muzzys) to see what the mags were missing. I don't know what they were missing. It seemed pretty simple to me.
D.
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pmkin10r
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posted January 10, 2006 10:22 AM
The significance of 2000 is that both bikes were "un-limited", subsequent Busa's and 12's were. Post 2000 12's being more inclined to pull to the 186 limit, busa's a couple mph short due to their respective "limiters". According to journo's all over the world, kawi did not introduce a Busa beater in 2000. The Busa's higher top end was demonstrated time after time in 2000 head to head comparisons all over the world.
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Phantom Menace
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posted January 10, 2006 11:16 AM
quote:
The significance of 2000 is that both bikes were "un-limited", subsequent Busa's and 12's were. Post 2000 12's being more inclined to pull to the 186 limit, busa's a couple mph short due to their respective "limiters". According to journo's all over the world, kawi did not introduce a Busa beater in 2000. The Busa's higher top end was demonstrated time after time in 2000 head to head comparisons all over the world.
angelfire.com/linux/ldrpg
Check this website out... you'll the the majority of magazine tests done since 2001-2005. Most if not all show the ZX12R owning the Busa. In most cases, the Hayabusa wasn't able to hit the electronic limiter of 184-186mph where as the ZX12R did in most tests.
These tests were all done with BOTH the ZX12R and Hayabusa present. It's rather ridiculous and ignorant to quote magazine results in which only 1 of the 2 were being tested. Believe it or not, the conditions in which the tests are conducted makes all the difference in the world. A good wind, good baro pressure, low humidity, low temp.... could boost a bike up 2-3mph easy one day.... and just the opposite the next day with poor conditions.
In the website you provided, there are a few discrepancies that I've witnessed in the numbers when compared to the actual magazine it's being quoted from. Very misleading that site is. In one case, the author of the website put the results of the Hayabusa performed in one issue against the results from the ZX performed nearly a year later by the same mag. Yet, he places them together as if there was a side by side comparison.
That website is created by a man named Todd Shelton. If you don't know much about him, you'll be suprised to hear that his credibility as an honest person is weak at best. In fact, he was caught using someone else's 9 sec time slip and passing it off as his own over the internet. Yes, the man is known across the world as the king of misinterpretation and master of taking things out of context.
So before you go on quoting a website, make sure you know the source it's coming from.
BTW...there's a very good reason why there are no scans of the magazines provided on his website. If you could read the actual magazines yourself, he wouldn't be able to make the Busa look so good.
Also notice how all the magazines are from 1999 (when the Zx12R was not even available) or 2000. Only 1 test from 2001, in which the results were INCORRECTLY quoted from the magazine. There's scans of the actual Sportrider Oct. 2001 magazine on the website I provided above. Again, if you actually read the magazines... you get a different story from what is posted and quoted on Todd Shelton's bias website in which he takes bits and pieces of the articles in order to glorify the Busa and drag the 12r through the mud.
If you've ever interacted with this guy, you'd see he is a firm 12r hater. Nothing but malicious comments about the Zx12R ever come from this man. I don't think you'll get an unbias compultation of evidence on how these two bikes compare from a guy like that.
So take 20 minutes of your time and go through the website I provided and do the reading and research for YOURSELF based on the actual magazines, not some bitter uncredible man who quotes only what he'd have you read and refuses to let you form your OWN opinion based on ALL the facts, not just the ones he picks and chooses.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 10, 2006 11:32 AM
quote:
According to journo's all over the world, kawi did not introduce a Busa beater in 2000. The Busa's higher top end was demonstrated time after time in 2000 head to head comparisons all over the world.
With a statement like that theres no point in showing you reality. You just couldnt grasp it.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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pmkin10r
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posted January 10, 2006 11:41 AM
Phantom, I'm not all that interested that a 12r may be faster than a post 2000 limited Busa. The central issue, seems to me to be, did Kawi introduce a Busa beater in unrestricted 2000 form. The overwhelming preponderance of the info. suggests not (do a google search, 2000 kawasaki zx-12r vs 2000 suzuki hayabusa top speed) if you find any credible information contradicting this please scan the article.
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trenace
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posted January 10, 2006 12:05 PM
quote:
Old news.
Notice that as experience was gained, the gap narrowed. And that, with one anomalous exception for both bikes, the 'Busa never exceeded that CW speed. And since then, day after day, all over the world, guys on 12's wax 'Busas. I don't hear much out there anymore about which one comes out on top in a roll on.
What I KNOW, however, is that I ran the 12 lap after lap in really bad air (80F, 75% h) at 192+ in.9 mile at Maxton for Kawasaki when the then VP Bob Moffitt asked me (thru Muzzys) to see what the mags were missing. I don't know what they were missing. It seemed pretty simple to me.
D.
And 192 in 0.9 mile means that top speed would be significantly greater than this.
But, you see, THAT run doesn't COUNT to the Busa-phile because it wasn't in a MAG. 
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Phantom Menace
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posted January 10, 2006 12:36 PM
Well, you may not be interested in POST y2k bikes.... but the fact remains that in the majority of test done, the Busa struggles to get near the 184-186mph limiter where as the Zx12R has little to no problem hitting the limiter under the SAME CONDITIONS.
To me, that's pretty cut and paste. The "LIMITED" aspect of these bikes are only relevant if both bikes are able to reach those limiters, Correct? If one bike can hit the limiter while the other can NOT.... then the limiter is not an issue, it's a weak excuse.
As for credible information stating that the 2000 ZX12R is indeed faster than a 2000 Hayabusa... how about actual video test evidence conducted by not 1... but 2 different magazines.
You can get a copy of the MACH 3 video and see for yourself. They take a 2000 ZX12R and 2000 Hayabusa across Europe doing top speed runs, roll-on's, switchbacks, etc..
They switched riders on both bikes and repeated the tests, ON VIDEO. Regardless of the rider, the Busa and ZX12R would start of neck and neck but the faster they went more the ZX12R would pull and in 5th and 6th gear the Ninja would leave the Busa for dead. This occured with BOTH riders on the ZX12R.
Or how about the "2 Wheels" test video done in 2000? They took the 2000 ZX12R and 2000 Busa side by side down a long straight....
The first time they ran, the ZX and Busa were neck and neck.... as soon as they clicked into high gear the ZX would walk away.
They switched riders and they finished neck and neck. Meaning that even with the better rider being on the Busa this time, it still couldn't beat the ZX.
Again, this is VIDEO evidence.... not a few numbers posted on the internet.
You know what they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words.... but a video is worth a MILLION!!
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zx12richard
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posted January 10, 2006 01:10 PM
OOOOOOOO fight fight.... Haven't seen a good Busa/12 match in awhile...
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supra5677
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posted January 10, 2006 01:20 PM
All my buddies who had busas, after they saw Mach3 they all sold there busas or never tried to do a roll on with a 12R again.. The 12R makes the busa look like a ZX9R in mach 3...
210mph showing on the suzuki clock, and the ZED X 12 disapearing.... here it is again just disapearing... makes my d!?>hard just thinking about it!!
supra
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supra5677
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posted January 10, 2006 01:27 PM
All my buddies who had busas, after they saw Mach3 they all sold there busas or never tried to do a roll on with a 12R again.. The 12R makes the busa look like a ZX9R in mach 3...
210mph showing on the suzuki clock, and the ZED X 12 disapearing.... here it is again just disapearing... makes my d!?>hard just thinking about it!!
supra
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Phantom Menace
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posted January 10, 2006 01:28 PM
 Edited By: Phantom Menace on 10 Jan 2006 13:28
[quote
210mph showing on the suzuki clock, and the ZED X 12 disapearing.... here it is again just disapearing... makes my d!?>hard just thinking about it!!
supra
LMFAO!!!
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pmkin10r
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posted January 10, 2006 02:30 PM
Is there not a single 2000 head to head independent bike-journo test to lend additional credence to individual experience and the afformentioned video?
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supra5677
Pro
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posted January 10, 2006 02:45 PM
The video is called Return of the Mach 3. It is the sequel of Mach 2 Carnage in which the busa destroyes everything else.. The video ( I have 2 copies ) is on VHS and is on sale for like 5.00 on the internet.. It is copy righted in 1999.
I live in California ( bay area) every busa out here that runs up against any 12 on the freeway gets walked on by fellow 12's. Last October to the Fresno run I rode with my buddy on his zx11 and his friend on his custom mapped, arata piped, lightened busa. He just knew he would walk both of us. I whipped his a!@ from Oakland all the way to Fresno, by the time he got there he thought something was wrong with his bike..haven't seen or heard from him since.. Thats how it goes in my neck of the woods..
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Phantom Menace
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posted January 10, 2006 04:17 PM
Edited By: Phantom Menace on 10 Jan 2006 16:22
pmkin10r- you've got to realize that you can't believe everything you read. Keep in mind that the bikes used in MAGAZINE TESTS are factory prepared test bikes, NOT showroom examples that you see on the street. That being said, it comes down to who sent out the better prepped bike, not which one is faster off the showroom floor.
On that note, realize that these are advertisement dependant magazines. Yup, magazines who's main source of income is based on the big dollar ads placed in their magazines by these companies. Look at Sportrider magazine for instance.... predominantly covered with Suzuki ads from the first page to the last. What a coincidence that they never have a bad thing to say about the Suzuki's they test... Count the ads of each bike company in the next issue of sportrider mag you pick up.
Anyway, I'd rather take 2 credible test video's where two riders ran them side by side then swapped bikes than 20 magazine test articles in which they had 1 rider ride both bikes seprately. Understand that winds can change for the better or worse in less than a couple minutes. Winds change direction and speed constantly which DOES effect mph. That being said, riding the bikes seprately isn't nearly as VALID of a test than doing it side by side then swapping riders to see how the results vary.
Also, you said, "the afformentioned video"..... make that plural because there are TWO seprate video tests done in the exact same manner and came up with the exact same real world results. On top of that, look over at the UK and their flyer events.... ZX12R's dominate the majority of classes ranging from stock,mild, to wild. Now before you say that here in the states the Busa's dominate the events at Maxton and Bonneville.... understand the class rules favor the Hayabusa with a 1350cc class limit. A simple 1.5mm piston kit puts the busa at 1348cc. Also note that there are no "validation" procedures conducted to bikes that break records at the US events.... for all anyone knows you could run a 1363cc or even a 1397cc Busa in the 1350cc class and nobody would blink twice.
In the UK, their classes are based on modification, not displacement. So a STOCK class (class 1) are untouched bikes. At Maxton/Bonneville.... In the P/P class (production stock)you can have a fully build 1348cc Busa motor pumping 200rwhp so long as you have a stock exterior appearance. That being said, there's no rule saying you can't modify the stock exhaust either....
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pmkin10r
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posted January 10, 2006 04:33 PM
Phantom Menace, do you als0 go by Phantom 12? If so you are a cyberspace posting machine and I will never win this arguement. Btw, Sportrider should have given you that assistant Ed. position.
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trenace
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posted January 10, 2006 04:40 PM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Jan 2006 16:42
Actually, you're not going to "win" this argument whether he is or isn't. In any case that is certainly irrelevant to the question. The facts are long old and you've provided nothing new, so how could you?
You would have to provide previously-unknown and better evidence to "win." Somehow that seems unlikely?
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pmkin10r
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posted January 10, 2006 05:57 PM
Terance, basesd on your own argument you are in the same position. Furthermore your theory of multiple cranckcases being overfilled throughout the world seems rather dubious.
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