psycho1122
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posted March 30, 2002 04:39 PM
DECK HIGHT
Checked deck hight this morning w/ new cylinder and pistons.....Found that w/o base gasket, I will be able to get within .5mm of Zero Deck. Interesting to see that Kawi built a little bit of "cushin" in the compression ratio dept.
Will be using 1104 between upper case and cylinders.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 01, 2002 06:33 PM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 1 Apr 2002 18:43
Psycho1122, watch that intake valve to piston clearance!!!
On my bike with STOCK pistons and cams, and the intake cam at 102.5 and the block shim in, the intake valve has .022" clearance to the piston.
If you remove the block shim (.010) and cut your pistons intake valve reliefs .010" you can run 103 on the intake cam!
Cut .015" and 102 is possable.
The compression(static) is 12.8
Most importantly the piston to head clearance decreases from .041" to .031"
I was running no block shim and the cams at 105/100 last season. 105 works without the block shim and no piston cutting.
y2kzx12r@aol.com
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psycho1122
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posted April 02, 2002 07:55 AM
Clearance?!
Y2K...
O.K....I will be running the Muzzy JE pistons w/ the 1270 kit. These have what "looks" to be a deeper relief cut for the valves. I will measure the difference when we install the cylinders tonight. Also, I am running my cam timing at 105.5 in/ 99.9 ex.
We will do a clay check when the head is installed.
Stay Tuned!! 
Psycho!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 02, 2002 08:59 AM
I havent seen (in my hands) the JE pistons for the muzzy kit.
I have asked a few times if anyone had ever measured depth of the stock pistons vs the JE units, but never got any response that I saw. Maybe I missed it? These boards move fast some times.
I recomend taking the intake valve with the thickest shim under the bucket and replacing the valve spring with a checking spring and use a dial indicator to check the piston to valve clearance.
Clay works but you can bend a valve if not carefull and its not as accurate. This stuff is tiny and tight.
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krexken
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posted April 02, 2002 08:47 PM
My 1361 had roughly .100 piston to valve clearance with cams set at 105/107 and no base shim. If I recall correctly, the JEs had about a mm deeper valve relief.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 03, 2002 02:55 AM
Thanks krex, I figures the JE's had more clearance.
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psycho1122
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posted April 03, 2002 06:52 AM
The JE's have .030 deeper cut on the intake side and are the same cut as the stockers on the exhaust side. The exhaust cut outs on the JE's are .025 shallower than the intake cut outs.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 03, 2002 07:00 AM
Thanks Psycho.
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psycho1122
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posted April 08, 2002 10:42 AM
Update
All pistons are 262g and wrist pins 70g, NICE! Also the clearences are a snug .0015 piston to wall and .0005 taper.
This is a well built kit and should give GREAT combustion pressure.
We treated the piston tops to give a nice even thermal barrier after the carbon deposits form.
Final Assembly should be Wed. nite.....
Later!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 08, 2002 11:10 AM
Sounds good.
I'm waiting on a head gasket.
I cut the pistons Friday night. .015" on the intake valve reliefs. Now I'll be able to run the intake cam at 103 without having to worry about stuffing a valve. Static compression at this point, should be about 12.7 with a proper squish area clearance.
If I cant get 185 rwhp with stock pistons and cams I'll be pissed.
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psycho1122
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posted April 08, 2002 06:01 PM
Y2K...So why do you want to run 103 instead of 105...Do you feel you would benefit from more overlap than a stocker?!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 09, 2002 07:46 AM
Well, I've tried 3 different cam timing settings so far and found that the zx12r engine is sensitive to dynamic compression losses more so than say a Busa. The swept volume chart shows a radical loss curve in swept volume per degree of crank volume. The dyno testing backed this up.
Also from the computer simulation tests and actual dyno tests of varrious cam timings I've tested, tell me that this engine (with stock valves, pistons and cams) wants 1-2 degrees more overlap than when the cams are at 104/102.
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psycho1122
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posted April 10, 2002 06:50 AM
Y2K....Why do you think Muzzys Rec. 105/100 !?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 10, 2002 09:03 AM
Well 105/100 did make more power after the HP peak of 10,600. So for a top speed run 105/100 may not be a bad idea.
Others have recomended 105/105. I havent tried 105/105 myself so I cant comment on how well it works.
I have some exhaust port extenders that are also going in the pipes for testing as well as the reed valve plates on the airbox/frame and an injector timing offset unit.
However the zx12r is on the back burner for a few weeks untill I finish a hardwood flooring project I've started.
Hopefully I can get this round of 12r testing done before I have to start some other major projects.
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psycho1122
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posted April 12, 2002 06:38 AM
Piston to Valve Clearance...
I did a Mock up assembly last night and clay checked the piston to valve clearances, .050 was the #'s I obtained w/o the base gasket and also re-using the original head gasket.
Cam Timing is 105.5in/99.9 ex.
I find this to be a "Nice & Comfortable" Measurement.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 12, 2002 01:07 PM
Psycho,
Don't use any "goop" at the base gasket, esp. 1104. They have a coating applied when manufactured that works just fine. You can't use a small enough quantity of 1104 (or 1211) to keep it from squeezing into the cases.
Doug
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psycho1122
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posted April 13, 2002 10:20 AM
No Base Gasket>>>
Doug,....I am NOT useing the base gasket.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 14, 2002 09:04 AM
Oh. Never mind.
But, in that case I'd use 1211 and damn little of it.
Doug
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 14, 2002 12:40 PM
Yea, .050" is cool. I wouldnt be nervous about that.
Whats your piston to head clearance now?
It should be about .030" now without the base shim.
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psycho1122
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posted April 16, 2002 07:42 AM
Don't have that # Y2K......
Did get the cylinders and head installed FINALY last night, those thin rings (OIL) are quite difficult to slip into the bores by hand while the engine is still in the frame. Took about an hour or so.
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justoyz2
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posted April 16, 2002 02:39 PM
I have mine degreed 105/105. It really pulls hard throughout the rev band. My gearing is 17/49. You can really tell the difference between the stock setting and the 105/105. You won't be disappointed by going with this setting.
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psycho1122
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posted May 22, 2002 07:59 AM
New 1270 Engine Runs Awesome!!
Yes it has been too long but here is an update.......
After re-assembly, I went to fire the beast and NOTHING!. It would turn over, but no fire! I thougt that because it had not reached proper oil pressure yet (light still on) that it would not fire the injectors. I proceeded to "burp" the oil system by unscrewing the filter till oil came out and almost immediately the light went out under starter rpm.
Still no fire..........
Checked the 4 basic's, Fuel flow, spark, Air Supply and compression. All were good, How about 230 psi on raw fresh build!? Only one problem....The Injectors were not "Clicking". Verified w/ a 9 volt batt. and manually got them to "click". Turns out that the ECU shut down my injectors when I had the system turned on w/o any of my coils or injectors plugged into it. I had the system on to install the new High Flow Muzzy Fuel Pump.
Unplugging the ECU from ALL power supply and plugging it back in reset the ECU and Wham! The beast FIRED!!
I now have over 1,200 mi. on the new engine and a couple of oil changes. The best way to describe the way it feels is to take a stocker and put a Supercharger on it! What a transformation! It can casually spin the rear wheel turning a corner as low as 2000 rpm in first gear!
It also accellerates in top gear like it used to in 4th!
I will be Dyno Tuning it after Memorial Day weekend on a new Dyno from Denmark. You can read all about it at this website (www.mjpeng.dk). This is an Engine Development Dyno, and it is SWEET!!
Stay Tuned!!
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Lorcan
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posted May 26, 2002 02:23 AM
injectors
Hi guys. This is a good thread. We've just ordered a 1270 kit so I thought I'd read up a bit. Doug I'm glad you owned up quickly to your little FPR error! I'd like to say some stuff about EFI.
Running higher fuel pressure is good, but only up to a point. Higher fuel pressure gets you better atomization. F1 cars (with $$$ injectors) run 150psi fuel pressure for this very reason. I've run Various Bosch-type injectors at 70+ static psi, no problem, as long as the pump can keep up. You have to remember that if you turn the fuel pressure up via the regulator, the pump outlet flow goes DOWN, not up. It's an electric pump, it turns at a constant speed, so it can flow more volume at lower pressure, or less volume at higher pressure. It cannot flow more fuel at higher pressure (although the injectors themselves will flow more at higher pressure). To do that you need a bigger pump. I'm surprised no-one has fitted an adjustable FPR with a 1270 kit. It's an ideal way to increase the fuelling across the range without using up the duty cycle of the injectors. It will also get you better atomization. 80% duty cycle max is an oversimplification. Injectors vary, but there is a point, usually around 85-87% where the injector can start to flutter due to overlapping signals from the ECU, and flow can HALVE before the injector goes to 100% duty (stays open). Obviously reaching this point is to be avoided, so stopping at 80% is safe. F1 injectors go way beyond this point. If the stock injectors flow 320cc/min (pulsed at 43psi) that should be enough for 240hp, or more if you turn the pressure up. To increase the flow by 10% you have to turn the pressure up 21% though (to double the flow you have to square the pressure). Turning up the pressure this much would get you to 264hp. It's normal for a fuel pump to have 30% spare capacity so if (round figures) the stock bike is 150hp you will want a bigger pump to go beyond 200hp. You might be ok with the stock pump, but you might not! The flow of each pump varies, there is a sharp drop off point when it reaches it's capacity. Sorry to ramble on...has anyone used a dry nitrous kit like on cars where it bumps the fuel pressure up for enrichment??
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Lorcan
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posted May 26, 2002 09:41 AM
FPRs
Actually, thinking about it a bit more, you could probably run a rising rate regulator. That way you could keep the nice low idle, but flow enough fuel at high rpm for hmmm...300hp? We messed around with one in the 80s on my turbo. It had a ratio of 2:1, so for every pound of boost it went up 2lbs on the fuel pressure (no PCs in those days!), but you can make them any ratio you like. If you did away with the boost port and used a solenoid linked to rpm to preload the diaphragm you could have stock fuel pressure at idle and 90psi at the redline, progressive all the way, and just fine tune with the PC. Whaddya reckon?
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psycho1122
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posted July 30, 2002 07:16 AM
RC Indicated to me that if the system would have any more pressure behind the injectors the "atomization" would be "TOO HIGH".
Maybe someone w/ this kind of background could explain why too much atomization would not be beneficial.
Due to delays with the new DYNO and completion of the room, Dyno day should happen on the 10th. of Aug.
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