posted March 17, 2002 07:26 PM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 24 May 2002 00:15
ENGINE HURT!/1270? UPDATE Could I get some feedback from any of you that have a Muzzy 1270 kit in there 12?
How many miles so far......
How nice did the kit install....
Do you have any H.P.#'s or graphs....
Did you degree the cams w/ the kit....
Did you do anything special like setting deck hight etc....
Thanks!! ,
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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posted March 18, 2002 01:59 AM
quote:Could I get some feedback from any of you that have a Muzzy 1270 kit in there 12?
Why yes, yes you can!
quote:How many miles so far....
Just went over 15000 miles on the bike, about 7500 on the 1270 kit now with ZERO problems!
quote:How nice did the kit install....
Pretty straightforward, just pull the motor, pop the head, yank the cylinder, pull the pistons off and replace with 1270 pistons(good time to check the wear on the crank) put the 1270 cylinder block on, put the head back on, shove the motor back in the bike!
quote:Do you have any H.P.#'s or graphs....
quote:Did you degree the cams w/ the kit....
Yes, definately worth doing!
quote:Did you do anything special like setting deck hight etc....
Nope, nothing beyond a light porting on the head just to clean it up.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted March 18, 2002 04:29 AM
homemade big bore? This may be a dumb question but what's to stop someone from just boring the stock block? I read about the Muzzy's plated cylinders, is that something they do in house? or is this just a bored out block with some 13.5-1 pistons?
posted March 18, 2002 07:10 AM
THX SWIFT ! Thanks for the Qwick response!! Did I meet you in Vegas at Dynojet? (I was loading my Green12)....
The reason I was asking is because My engine Hurt it self on a top speed run out here in the desert.....I was running strong in 5th gear when the engine "laid down" at about 10,000 rpm. White, oily smoke came out of the crankcase breather ( which exits out the tail next to the tailight ( I separated it from the airbox ))!
Trailered it home and pulled the plugs.....all looked good , but #4 had splatters of aluminum on it.
Did a compression test and #'s 1,2,3 had 220 psi. (cold) and #4 had only 40!! (@#%&!)
I will take this "opportunity" to give the engine a nice once over. I already degreed the cams to 105/100, "clean-up the ports, zero the deck give the new pistons the once over etc.
Question....Has anybody seen any gains fron using tha Muzzy fuel pump in the 1270 ?
THX!
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted March 18, 2002 10:48 AM
quote:Thanks for the Qwick response!! Did I meet you in Vegas at Dynojet? (I was loading my Green12)....
The reason I was asking is because My engine Hurt it self on a top speed run out here in the desert.....I was running strong in 5th gear when the engine "laid down" at about 10,000 rpm. White, oily smoke came out of the crankcase breather ( which exits out the tail next to the tailight ( I separated it from the airbox ))!
Trailered it home and pulled the plugs.....all looked good , but #4 had splatters of aluminum on it.
Did a compression test and #'s 1,2,3 had 220 psi. (cold) and #4 had only 40!! (@#%&!)
I will take this "opportunity" to give the engine a nice once over. I already degreed the cams to 105/100, "clean-up the ports, zero the deck give the new pistons the once over etc.
Question....Has anybody seen any gains fron using tha Muzzy fuel pump in the 1270 ?
THX!
Yes, that was me! Good to meet you! Sorry to hear about your engine mishap! And the muzzy pump is a good idea if you see yourself making over 200hp. The stock pump is just about max'd out when running full throttle. It would be interesting to get your motor apart and see what happened in the #4 cylinder. Wonder if the motor went lean...
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted March 18, 2002 10:49 AM
Silver12bullit - Muzzy bores the cylinders themselves and then has then nikasil'd. So if you have access to the facilities, go for it! The pistons are avail from JE, btw.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted March 18, 2002 01:15 PM
Lean?! We feel at this point that an Injector may have had a partial clog or something to cause only #4 to have a problem.
We are doing a tear down tonight to see what happened, also we will inspect the fuel delivery system completely.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted March 18, 2002 01:46 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 18 Mar 2002 13:53
silver
The ENTIRE block is aluminum...NO STEEL SLEEVES...that's why they are plated...you can't "just bore them out" and install pistons...
swft
Your first reply makes it "look like" it's a "wham-bam...thank you Mam/Sir" motor you HAD BUILT for your bike...
I KNOW there was a LOT of time spent "building YOUR motor"...right???
Take top end off and...Oh..."check the crank while your at it???" LOL...
Yes...just about any mechanicaly inclines person can "R&R (install) a 1270 kit" but...THEY will NOT get near the same results (HP) that you did with your 1270...
A lot of tuning (owning a dyno) helps also...
This is NOT a slam at you swft!!! I admire all the things you HAVE done($$$$) and have learned to DO...AND have posted here about
I just wanted to clarify (for laymans) that there's a BIG difference in "installing a kit" and "building a MOTOR"
psycho
Unless you did something "goofy" with your timing??? or...you got some bad gas (low octane)...It sounds like it went lean (as SWFT stated)...
If all the other pistons are "perfectly OK" then... maybe? the #4 injector leaned out for some reason...
Doug (at Muzzys) posted that it can't hurt to upgrade the fuel pump if ANY mods are done to the bike...
Seems like a top-end-run-motor would be a PRIME candidate for this...IMO...
PLEASE let us know what you find/see when you get it appart!!!
I HATE hearing about hurt parts but...ALWAYS like to know "what did it"...
posted March 18, 2002 03:25 PM
i was told that Muzzy had a deal with JE pistons that JE would only sell that exact bore(1270)to Muzzy for there kit and not to just anyone.??
posted March 18, 2002 03:36 PM
Timing/JE's The timing on my engine is Stock w/ stock rotor....The last time I dyno tested(DJ250)I tried a MUZZY adj. advancer and found that the engine made more power(everywhere) at the stock setting.
Ordered the 1270 kit today and was Confirmed that the piston blanks are definately JE.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted March 18, 2002 04:48 PM
I don't know if you can only get the 1270 pistons through Muzzys but this might be true because I was told that the Muzzys kit has different rings than the JE 1290 pistons (not just diameter)...
I heard that Muzzys didn't like the rings that came with the "production JE pistons"...
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted March 18, 2002 05:39 PM
kcadby - No worries, I know yer not slammin me. You are right, it's not a 1-2-3 thing for the 1270, but nowhere as near as hard as putting together the 1347 motor was. ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted March 18, 2002 10:55 PM
#4 Piston Melted !! It is confirmed.....#4 piston was all smeared and scored down the sides and on top around the edge on the exhaust side of the piston.
If you have ever seen a 2 stroke that was run lean, that's exactly what the piston and cylinder look like....Bad!!
It definately got very hot in there! All the other holes look PERFECT!!
I need to have the injectors inspected to determine the problem.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted March 19, 2002 10:06 AM
SWFT
What did you use to get those pistons into the cylnders. I am having the hardest time making this happen. I have tried the screw driver/hose clamp and even the load the cylnders and connect the rod techniques. None of them seem to work. Did you use your circle clips or the one which came with the kit?
posted March 19, 2002 03:16 PM
granted my experience was on a yzf600, so the pistons/rings are smaller, but loading them in to the cylinders may be easier by virtue of more room to work with
i got sheet aluminum, fairly thin, but still strong. cut into a strip long enough to go round the piston with about 2 inches to spare. wide enough to cover the area of the rings
with piston on bench, wrap the strip of aluminum around the piston, and pre-bend it so that you have about an inch on either end, to hold on to. repeat (build 2)
after pistons are on crank and ready to go....
then is simple task of having a friend lower the cylinder onto the 2 pistons you have grip on, once they are in (i did inside ones first) you can pull the strips out.
of course then VERY carefuly rotate crank around so the other 2 are moving upwards, but with enough clearance to get the strips in and rings compressed. insert in same manner, being careful not to dislodge the other 2 pistons. (heh...that sucks..took me 3 trys to get it right without undoing the 1st 2....)
anyways there was NO way i was paying 140 dollars a piece for the 'proper' tool from yamaha (and id have needed to buy 2 of the things) next time maybe i will try something a bit different, but that worked out fine, so if it aint broke dont fix it ;P
hope this helps!
posted March 20, 2002 07:31 AM
1270 on the way ! I shipped the cylinders off to Muzzys and the Injectors went to RC.
I will be installing the Muzzys fuel pump along w/ the kit to inshure proper fueling at ALL operating levels.
Installing this pump should also alow the performance of the injectors to rise. The lbs/min. should increase w/ the added flow rate of the new pump, also w/ some extra pressure the atomization should improve!
Does anyone currently run this set-up w/ a pcIII, I would love to use your map as a baseline to break the new engine in with.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
posted March 21, 2002 01:15 AM
Wow...I guess I was lucky??? I had NO trouble with the rings...
Did you use studs screwed in the block to hold the block in line with the pistons??? (not flopping around)...
I clamp small (needle nose) vise grips to the stud under the end of the cylinders that I'm NOT working on...I could NEVER do it by myself if I didn't do it this way...
I just happen to have some old Z1 cylinder studs laying around NOT the "exact" right size but...they just screw in loose to hold the cylinders in-line with the pistons...
Fingers and screw drivers work fine for me...
Get some studs if you don't have any...
posted March 23, 2002 06:34 AM
Injectors RC'd :) RC did an excellent job on my injectors, the turn around was qwick !
They are 320cc/min units at 43psi. Good for "only 193" H.P. w/ the stock fuel pump.
If you add the new Muzzy pump and because of the extra flow you get a slight rise in fuel pressure, the same injectors are good for just over 200 h.p.!!
Deffinately will want to use the "Big Pump" w/ any build-up.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
Could you elaborate a little more about the stock injectors, RC saying they would be good for only 193hp? Just wondering how we are getting some bikes, big bores & strokers reading low 200's on the dyno. Maybe because the dyno runs are relatively short, what 15 or 20 seconds tops and maybe not enough time to run out of fuel? Not necessarily doubting RC, just trying to make sense of it. Possibly the CR comes into it, with the stocker being 12:2 & most big bores being 13 or better. Just wondering if going to the Muzzy fuel pump could pick up a couple easy hp in heavily/slightly(200hp) modded bikes.
posted March 24, 2002 09:38 AM
Injectors Go to the RC website (rceng.com) and do the worksheet on an injector that is rated at 320cc/min. You will see that w/ the stock pump (200lb/hr.) at 43 psi. 80% duty cycle puts the injectors at 193 hp. (opitimum)!! Now if you make more power you will be on "THE EDGE" w/ the stock pump.
I'm glad that Doug Meyer figured this out at Bonniville, It will save me from trouble later on!
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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